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Mr Rose
Jul 26, 2010 9:05:57 GMT -5
Post by ronald on Jul 26, 2010 9:05:57 GMT -5
I am sure a lot has been said about his story, I have recently looked at a web site that has pictures of his grave and some info about his time in Louisiana late in his life, he told the same story over the years, and did not have a lot of shame in what he said he did. I wonder what the odds are he was really at the Alamo, maybe he escaped at the end and made up the story of the line? You may just want to direct me to an old thread as I am new here thanks
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Mr Rose
Jul 26, 2010 9:29:58 GMT -5
Post by jesswald on Jul 26, 2010 9:29:58 GMT -5
Rose allegedly claimed to have dropped over the wall into a pool of Mexican blood. Where would this blood have come from, on a night prior to the assault? I don't know the answers about Rose, but I have a further question. Was Rose Jewish? Those trusted authorities Long and Tucker (to name only two) suggest this. Tucker in particular points out that the myth-makers selected as the designated coward a man who was both French and Jewish, not a real Texan. Very intriguing, if true. Jesse Waldinger
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Mr Rose
Jul 26, 2010 21:41:32 GMT -5
Post by Rich Curilla on Jul 26, 2010 21:41:32 GMT -5
I have always found it amusing that Rose probably would have been the only professional soldier in the Alamo -- and he left.
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Mr Rose
Jul 26, 2010 21:54:20 GMT -5
Post by Seguin on Jul 26, 2010 21:54:20 GMT -5
When I think of Rose, I cannot help thinking of the fake Anastasia, Anna Anderson, who claimed all her life to be the youngest daughter of Czar Nicholas of Russia who was executed together with his whole family by the communists. Anna Anderson was later proven to be a Polish factory worker. So, it´s entirely possible that Rose himself believed he was at the Alamo...
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Mr Rose
Aug 1, 2010 21:52:57 GMT -5
Post by marklemon on Aug 1, 2010 21:52:57 GMT -5
This from a website devoted to Texas history: jayssouth.com/texas/alamo/rose/"He is often remembered as the "Coward of the Alamo", a title he never denied. Louis “Moses” Rose was born in Laferee, Ardennes, France on May 11, 1785 and was no stranger to war. At the age of 21 years, he enlisted in Napoleon’s 101st Regiment, eventually earning the rank of lieutenant. He was named to the French Legion of Honor in 1814 and had served in campaigns in Naples, Portugal, Spain and Russia. In 1827, he was living in Nacogdoches, Texas and working as a log splitter for a sawmill. He served as a messenger between Nacogdoches and Natchitoches, Louisiana. In 1826, he joined the Fredonian Rebellion and was involved in the Battle of Nacogdoches in 1832. Among his friends was James Bowie. He joined Bowie on the trip to Bexar (San Antonio) in 1835 and fought in the first siege of Bexar. On February 23, 1836, he entered the Alamo as Santa Anna arrived in Bexar. Due to his age, 51, he was called “Moses”. For ten days he fought as actively as any man among the defenders. But, Louis Rose had already seen much more of war than most at the Alamo. He recognized the maneuvers executed by Santa Anna, they were maneuvers used in the battlefields of Europe when Napoleon was on the move. He came to realize that there would be no escape from this siege. They were vastly outnumbered and their supplies were limited. It was Rose who related the story of Travis drawing a line in the dirt and asking those who were willing to stand, and die, with him to cross the line. All but Rose crossed the line. When asked years later why he didn’t cross the line, he replied, “By God, I wasn’t ready to die!” On the night of March 5, 1836, Rose slipped over the walls and started working his way through enemy lines. He spoke fluent Spanish, which served him well that night. He traveled along the San Antonio River about three miles south of San Antonio, then turned east toward the Guadalupe River. He wandered for weeks, dodging Mexican patrols and sleeping on the ground. Finally, he turned up at the home of William P. Zuber in Grimes County, asking for a meal and a chance to rest. He had traveled almost two hundred miles. Immediately, Rose explained his situation, thinking the Zubers may not appreciate having a coward in their home. He was recognized as an honest man by the Zuber family. They allowed him to stay there several weeks until he had recovered from the weeks in the wild. He returned to his home in Nacogdoches and went to work in a butcher shop. As an Alamo survivor, he frequently was asked to verify claims of the heirs of Alamo defenders who were trying to collect land for a deceased family member's service to Texas. He relocated to Logansport, Louisiana in the 1840s and worked in a butcher shop there. In Logansport, he lived with the Aaron Ferguson family. Whenever someone approached him regarding the Battle of the Alamo, he would tell them honestly that he was the “coward of the Alamo”. Louis Rose never married. He passed away in 1850 in Logansport, Louisiana at the age of 65. He was buried in Desoto Parish, Louisiana in the Old Whitten Cemetery, located between Logansport and Longstreet, Louisiana east of the community of Funston on Parish Road 168. The old cemetery today is known as Moses Rose Historical Gravesite. In 1927, one of his brother’s descendants, Arthur Rose, presented Louis Rose’s musket to the Alamo Museum."
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Mr Rose
Aug 1, 2010 22:00:56 GMT -5
Post by Rich Curilla on Aug 1, 2010 22:00:56 GMT -5
I also seem to remember that he didn't die a natural death. That he was serving as a police officer and was killed in the line of duty. Sorry, I can't recall where I read this.
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Mr Rose
Aug 1, 2010 22:27:16 GMT -5
Post by Allen Wiener on Aug 1, 2010 22:27:16 GMT -5
What lends credibility to Rose, IMO, is the fact that his testimony regarding the identification of Alamo casualties was accepted during legal proceedings on land grants, etc.
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Post by stuart on Aug 2, 2010 5:33:41 GMT -5
I have to respectfully differ on the above and refer interested parties to chapters 4 and 5 of the late Ton Lindley's Alamo Traces. As old-time members of the board will know I'm not one to take TRL's interpretations at face value, but on this one he seems to be pretty right on the money in exposing everything on the Jaysouth website quoted by Mark as a work of fiction.
As to the corroboration of claims (discussed in chapter 5), this is again nonsense spouted by Robert Bruce Blake, an enthusiastic ferreter through the Nacogdoches archives with a strong talent for fiction - amongst other things he was the gentleman responsible for the nonsensical article on Dr James Grant in the Handbook of Texas which not only confuses him with an entirely different James Grant but manages to place him in two places (Nacogdoches and Monclova) at one and the same time.
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Post by Allen Wiener on Aug 2, 2010 7:52:23 GMT -5
Thanks Stuart; obviously I need to re-read Lindley here. My memory is a bit fuzzy on Rose's testimony (or alleged testimony), but I recall him being quoted along with Dickinson on these land claim verifications.
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Post by marklemon on Aug 2, 2010 9:11:14 GMT -5
Stuart, my posting the text from the website listed was in no way an endorsement of its contents. I was simply putting it out there as a baseline from which to start a discussion, as that had not really been done on this thread, other than in the most general manner. The purported facts of the story had not been specifically laid out, and that was what I was doing. You may be right and Lindley may have successfully refuted these points, but, as is the case with most things Lindley, that "success" is in itself a highly debatable point.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Aug 2, 2010 9:31:50 GMT -5
I have to respectfully differ on the above and refer interested parties to chapters 4 and 5 of the late Ton Lindley's Alamo Traces. As old-time members of the board will know I'm not one to take TRL's interpretations at face value, but on this one he seems to be pretty right on the money in exposing everything on the Jaysouth website quoted by Mark as a work of fiction. As to the corroboration of claims (discussed in chapter 5), this is again nonsense spouted by Robert Bruce Blake, an enthusiastic ferreter through the Nacogdoches archives with a strong talent for fiction - amongst other things he was the gentleman responsible for the nonsensical article on Dr James Grant in the Handbook of Texas which not only confuses him with an entirely different James Grant but manages to place him in two places (Nacogdoches and Monclova) at one and the same time. Thanks Stuart. I will have to re-read Lindley on this -- also an "enthusiastic ferreter."
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Post by Kevin Young on Aug 2, 2010 9:46:00 GMT -5
I still have questions that the service record for Louis Rose that Steven Kellerman found in the French Military Records is the same one who ends up in Texas.
Also, don't ever remember seeing a "Moses" Rose musket at the Alamo but they did have a Colt Revolver on display for years that was suppose to be his.
Mark-never in a minute did I think you endorsed what the web page you quoted. I think it sums up the traditional Rose information, which is at best, not well founded.
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Mr Rose
Aug 2, 2010 10:05:24 GMT -5
Post by Rich Curilla on Aug 2, 2010 10:05:24 GMT -5
So what do you guys therefore think of the information about Rose in New Orleans and getting killed in the line of duty (some of which I may be misremembering)? Or would this be a moot point with more basic information being faulty?
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Mr Rose
Aug 2, 2010 10:45:32 GMT -5
Post by Kevin Young on Aug 2, 2010 10:45:32 GMT -5
Rich-the Logansport folks have always maintained he is buried there...but then again, that may be based on other sources...as far as I remember, for years it was an unmarked grave...complete with romantic story that a cactus grew out of the grave from the thorns still in Rose's leg from his Alamo escape.
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Mr Rose
Aug 2, 2010 12:29:08 GMT -5
Post by stuart on Aug 2, 2010 12:29:08 GMT -5
Stuart, my posting the text from the website listed was in no way an endorsement of its contents. I was simply putting it out there as a baseline from which to start a discussion, as that had not really been done on this thread, other than in the most general manner. The purported facts of the story had not been specifically laid out, and that was what I was doing. You may be right and Lindley may have successfully refuted these points, but, as is the case with most things Lindley, that "success" is in itself a highly debatable point. Appreciate both those points, which is why I included my own health warning about TRL's work; but as his discussion of Rose is both thorough and relatively easily accessible, I suggest that folks get their copy down from the shelves and make their own judgement :-)
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