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Post by Rich Curilla on Jun 15, 2010 18:35:19 GMT -5
Encore Western Channel today showed '52's THE IRON MISTRESS, and in its last half hour there were a few interior scenes of what was supposed to be the Veramendi House. I thought they did a credible job, if of course it wasn't historically on the nose. High ceilings, rich carpets and other furnishings, even a coat of arms on the wall. This just might be the most exposure time the "Veramendi House" ever had on screen. One regret I have is that John Lee Hancock was cut back so much budget-wise from Ron's budget that he had to eliminate the Battle of Bexar in his rewrite. It was scripted with wonderful aerial shots (probably from that wire-cam) of the attack through the streets as well as (if I remember correctly) Ben Milam's death scene in the Veramendi courtyard. I don't remember what, but scenes were also planned for the interior of the house. Michael had it pretty well drawn out on the plywood set already when he had to eliminate that interior and the Alamo hospital.
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Post by Donald Hash on Jun 15, 2010 21:06:04 GMT -5
"The Iron Mistress" re-airs at 1:05am Central Time.
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Post by cantador4u on Jun 15, 2010 21:44:00 GMT -5
Quote: Actually, the description in the will of the widow's personal belongings was equally as interesting as the description of the property. If I can find the time today, I'll try to transcribe the article for those of you who may be interested. Even if you're not interested in Veramendi, it will give you a glimpse into how the better half lived in 18th century Bexar. I, for one, would be very interested in reading it. Quote: I used the measurements or scaling from the Sanborn Map, and included the laundry area on the south end of the property as the southern most room of the VP.Could you expand on this a little bit please? The Sanborn map shows that the laundry room doesn't line up with the rest of the building and is made of adobe rather than stone. Do you think the adobe portion was part of the Veramendi building or that a portions was removed some time between 1836 and 1885? Quote: Someone check me on this, but I don't think the HABS organization existed at the time of the home's demolition or butchering as I like to refer to it. So, in their defense, I'm sure they did their best to collect whatever information was out there.I'm sure you're correct. I'm just frustrated that a building with that much history was lost and I thought I'd take it out on YOU! If you weren't so responsible we wouldn't blame everything on you. Quote: 2) Why were the walls not built square? The rooms are oddly-shaped. (I read that Juan Seguin's grandfather (?) was a carpenter who was involved in its construction.)Well... How square does a building HAVE to be? It was square enough. I suspect that perfect right angle corners is a cultural value. I doubt that it was all that important when building such houses at the time. Being plumb was probably more important. - Paul Meske, Sun Prairie, WI
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Post by Mike Harris on Jun 15, 2010 23:54:43 GMT -5
Quote: Actually, the description in the will of the widow's personal belongings was equally as interesting as the description of the property. If I can find the time today, I'll try to transcribe the article for those of you who may be interested. Even if you're not interested in Veramendi, it will give you a glimpse into how the better half lived in 18th century Bexar. I, for one, would be very interested in reading it. Quote: I used the measurements or scaling from the Sanborn Map, and included the laundry area on the south end of the property as the southern most room of the VP.Could you expand on this a little bit please? The Sanborn map shows that the laundry room doesn't line up with the rest of the building and is made of adobe rather than stone. Do you think the adobe portion was part of the Veramendi building or that a portions was removed some time between 1836 and 1885? The Laundry area at one point would have lined up with the rest of the building front and back. And I believe by the 1885 Sanborn map, the laundry area was a wooden structure. According to an article in the Galveston Daily News the south wall of the VP fell. Nov. 22, 1878- San Antonio- "The south wall of the Veramendi house, in consequence of excavating a cellar for a building, fell with a loud crash. Several workmen had a narrow escape."
So, I feel certain, the southern most room of the VP (with the small door that fronted Soledad) was the room that had it's south wall crumble. It was then rebuilt as a wooden structure and moved back from the street. Probably in line with the rest of the buildings on that side of the block.Quote: Someone check me on this, but I don't think the HABS organization existed at the time of the home's demolition or butchering as I like to refer to it. So, in their defense, I'm sure they did their best to collect whatever information was out there.I'm sure you're correct. I'm just frustrated that a building with that much history was lost and I thought I'd take it out on YOU! If you weren't so responsible we wouldn't blame everything on you. Hey, I'm with you. It still ticks me off to think what could have been saved. I would have even settled (at least at this point) for a highly accurate reproduction. The more of the history I read behind the place, the more frustrated I became with it's demise. Certainly a shame. Quote: 2) Why were the walls not built square? The rooms are oddly-shaped. (I read that Juan Seguin's grandfather (?) was a carpenter who was involved in its construction.)I would guess the interior walls would have intersected the load bearing walls at 90 degrees wherever possible. They may be exaggerated a bit on the maps above. They probably would have been a little off at some of the corners, such as where the north wing meets the northern end of the main building. Haven't heard the Seguin story, but I suppose it's possible.Well... How square does a building HAVE to be? It was square enough. I suspect that perfect right angle corners is a cultural value. I doubt that it was all that important when building such houses at the time. Being plumb was probably more important. - Paul Meske, Sun Prairie, WI
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Post by Mike Harris on Jun 16, 2010 14:43:05 GMT -5
Here you go Paul and anyone else who might be interested. The 1787 will of Fernando Veramendi's widow. From the San Antonio Light, December 30, 1936.
BEXAR’S 18TH CENTURY ARISTOCRACY IS PICTURED IN THE WILL OF A VERAMENDI WIDOW A yellowed and tattered document in the basement of the Bexar County Courthouse has yielded an intriguing picture of old San Antonio, a San Antonio in which the horses of aristocrats wore silver bits and gold rosaries gleamed in San Fernando cathedral.
In the “G” file of the Bexar county archives, bearing the number 140, is the will of Maria Josepha Granandos, native of San Antonio and the widow of Fernando Veramendi. The will was filed January 9, 1787.
An intimate glimpse of the Veramendi palace, once located on Soledad street and now obliterated, is afforded in the quaint document of 73 pages, written in archaic Spanish.
FAMILY HISTORY “In the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, three persons in one, Amen,” the document begins. There follows a lengthy family history in which it disclosed that Veramendi’s widow had married, after his death, one Juan Martin Amondarain, “also of Castille.”
Then declaring that she had been saved from Satan by the cross, Senora Amondarain proceeded to distribute and name her property, and in doing so, gave an excellent picture of her times.
“I have skirts of blue satin,” she said. She also had a gold rosary and one of silver; two pair of crucifixes with emeralds and small stones; “bracelets of pearls, a ring, emeralds set in gold, five pearl necklaces wrapped in paper, an ivory fan, two gold rings…a wooden desk trimmed with ivory inlay; a coffer bound with silver; a silver key ring.”
“I declare as mine, the bed in which I lie, with two good mattresses, five sheets, a holster…with a silken case, a footrest embroidered in silk, a pavilion (canopy) of cloth with oil paintings on the ceiling.”
And for a peep into the palace, long a historic landmark in the city, note a few of the items in the will. “An image of the Virgin in linen and glass” “Two rugs, a table, cushions, a bench, nine chairs, a sacate and a chest of drawers.”
SILVER SERVICE “I declare as mine 12 silver plates, 12 silver spoons, 12 silver forks, knives and a silver platter and silver bowl.” “I declare as mine a china platter with four plates, a platter of 2 plates of French ware…a large crystal vace (gilded) and two others in holders.”
Veramendi palace is described as a “house…which consists of a parlor, store, zaguan (corridor with 2 rooms above and 3 below), a store-room, kitchen and patio, all of stone, the main building enclosed and the sides of brick, with windows of iron doors and keys, all new.”
After claiming “two days of water in the upper labor,” some suertes of land and other possessions, Senora Amondarain divided her estate and the document was witnessed by the governor of the province of Texas, Don Raphael Martinez Pacheco. The woman died February 5, 1787.
I hope you all enjoyed it.
Mike
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Post by cantador4u on Jun 16, 2010 20:40:05 GMT -5
Quote: Veramendi palace is described as a “house…which consists of a parlor, store, zaguan (corridor with 2 rooms above and 3 below), a store-room, kitchen and patio, all of stone, the main building enclosed and the sides of brick, with windows of iron doors and keys, all new.”
With regard to the building description above, and in particular the section I underlined, I'm interpreting this to mean that there were 2 rooms to one side of the zaguan and 3 rooms on the other side of the zaguan.
Thanks for sharing this information Mike.
- Paul Meske, Sun Prairie, Wisconsin
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Post by Mike Harris on Jun 16, 2010 22:28:39 GMT -5
Quote: Veramendi palace is described as a “house…which consists of a parlor, store, zaguan (corridor with 2 rooms above and 3 below), a store-room, kitchen and patio, all of stone, the main building enclosed and the sides of brick, with windows of iron doors and keys, all new.”With regard to the building description above, and in particular the section I underlined, I'm interpreting this to mean that there were 2 rooms to one side of the zaguan and 3 rooms on the other side of the zaguan. That's the way I took it- 2 above, upstream or north and 3 below, downstream or south. I tell you that entire description is pretty tough to envision, in terms of placing certain rooms in specific locations. Thanks for sharing this information Mike. You're welcome, Paul. - Paul Meske, Sun Prairie, Wisconsin
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Post by cantador4u on Jun 17, 2010 0:26:44 GMT -5
So can we tell where the Veramendi Palace was located? Maybe. What if we took the Sanborn fire map of 1885 and superimpose it over an aerial photo of that section of Soledad street? Well, I did that. Not once but several times using aerial photos from MSN maps and Yahoo maps. I'll show you the results, not the entire agonizing process. If you look closely you should be able to make out VP about two-thirds up the right hand street. I'm showing this picture so that you can see how I tried to line up two maps and let me know if I made some grievous error. In this picture I traced over the VP in the Sanborn map and then removed the Sanborn map to make the results more clear. I've never been here and I have no idea what the buildings are that the VP is in front of. It appears that the rear wall of the VP lines up with the front walls of the modern buildings, and the main entrance was where an ally is. I hope that this is helpful. - Paul Meske, Sun Prairie, Wisconsin
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Post by Donald Hash on Jun 17, 2010 8:02:19 GMT -5
Where the VP was is currently, in my opinion as of walking through there 2 months ago, is a run-down slum of closed-down store fronts. I was comfortable walking the entire city at all hours day & night... But that stretch of street reminded me of where Batman's parents were killed.
Using the same overlay technique recently (but not as precise or as clean as your amazing work above), I estimated the Ben Milam kill shot at a range of approximately 350-400 ft. -- Does that seem correct? Is that too great a range for the weapons available at that time?
These maps, satellite overlays, the will, the video, and all comments above have me really super-excited! Great stuff, everyone!
*modified missing pronoun
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Post by Herb on Jun 17, 2010 10:13:31 GMT -5
Using the same overlay technique recently (but not as precise or as clean as your amazing work above), I estimated the Ben Milam kill shot at a range of approximately 350-400 ft. -- Does that seem correct? Is that too great a range for the weapons available at that time? The shot was suposedly from a Mexican sniper using a Baker rifle. The Baker was claimed to have accomplished some incredible shots during the Penisular War. 200 yards (600) feet was consider well with in its range for even an average marksman.
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Post by Mike Harris on Jun 17, 2010 11:11:02 GMT -5
Using the same overlay technique recently (but not as precise or as clean as your amazing work above), I estimated the Ben Milam kill shot at a range of approximately 350-400 ft. -- Does that seem correct? Is that too great a range for the weapons available at that time? The shot was suposedly from a Mexican sniper using a Baker rifle. The Baker was claimed to have accomplished some incredible shots during the Penisular War. 200 yards (600) feet was consider well with in its range for even an average marksman. Interesting, Wolfpack. There was a story, from one of the Bexar participants of a Mexican sniper, who apparantly never missed his mark. The Texians, while on the roof, would taunt the sniper by raising their hats just above the parapet. The sniper never failed to disappoint and would get the hats everytime and then hide behind the limbs to the Texians frustration. In the end, however, he apparantly went for one too many hats. Illustrator...Batman's parents?? That's funny stuff right there. And right on regarding Soleded- day or night!! Paul, We've been discussing the exact location over on the John Wayne Alamo web-site, as well. There are some excellent ground level shots showing the location of the VP. You seem to have nailed it with the superimposing maps. Nice work. You should check out the site. I think you'll enjoy some of the older photos as well. www.johnwayne-thealamo.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=605&start=410
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Post by cantador4u on Jun 18, 2010 18:00:33 GMT -5
Quote: We've been discussing the exact location over on the John Wayne Alamo web-site, as well. There are some excellent ground level shots showing the location of the VP. You seem to have nailed it with the superimposing maps. Nice work. You should check out the site. I think you'll enjoy some of the older photos as well. www.johnwayne-thealamo.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=605&start=410 Huntermike I've been following the John Wayne site discussions but I am not a member of that forum. It's what gave me the idea for the overlay. Feel free to share the pictures with them. Quote: Using the same overlay technique recently (but not as precise or as clean as your amazing work above), I estimated the Ben Milam kill shot at a range of approximately 350-400 ft. -- Does that seem correct? Is that too great a range for the weapons available at that time?Using the distance scale of the aerial photo and the Pythagorean theorem I came up with 425 feet, but I wouldn't claim that this is 100% accurate. Maybe someone with Google Earth or some such program could give a more accurate distance. The Milam Cyprus is visible in the picture. It's at the intersection of two dashed lines in the lower right-hand corner. - Paul Meske, Sun Prairie, Wisconsin
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jun 18, 2010 18:42:52 GMT -5
I Giggle Earthed it. From the middle of the alleged sniper Cypress tree on the bend of the river to the original location of the east end of the Veramendi porte-cochere is exactly 360 feet. Seems like a reasonable shot, based on Wolfpack's comments above. And, judging from the line of fire, it would have been a clear shot over the south garden wall of the palace with nothing but river and probably clear land in between. I could have done it myself.
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Post by marklemon on Jun 18, 2010 18:54:26 GMT -5
Adapted from the original by ValeroBowie, based upon information from HunterMike. - Paul Meske, Sun Prairie, Wisconsin Using Paul's reconstruction of Mike's information, we see that, if the accounts are true, and Milam was standing in the doorway to the inner patio, then the Mexican sniper would have had a pretty narrow window in which to get his shot off. The line of sight from the cypress to the doorway just barely misses the kitchen/servant's quarters building that was there in 1836. Good shootin'....
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Post by Mike Harris on Jun 18, 2010 19:24:19 GMT -5
I thought the same thing, Mark, when I was building my model. Seemed like a pretty low percentage shot. I also heard accounts that he was shot by the front door and one that said he was shot by the south wall, then taken inside until they could bury him. There was a back door by the south wall. I only found one account that gave an actual location of his burial, which happened to be the south wall. All of the others seem to say he was buried where he was shot and fell, which is of course the most popular arched patio door. I would say the truth has been lost forever. Mike
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