|
Post by marklemon on Feb 14, 2009 0:45:43 GMT -5
im just looking for the truth mark, how can you cut down jamesons map. which i think is off, but claim labastista? map correct, when it shows the mo twice the size of san antonio Well, I can answer that, but it'll take a while. First, I'm not capriciously picking and choosing favorites as you imply. But we must first admit that with Jameson, we are dealing with a copy, and with Labastida, we have the original. We know that the Jameson plat is not an original map drawn by Jameson himself, but a copy from the latter part of the 19th century, which is based on the 1849 Giraud plat. SO we have to be very, very careful what features we just "accept" from either of the two Jameson plat copies. I feel that the key to the map is more reliable, as it is a much more straight forward thing to copy words on a page, than it is to copy a detailed map, with many features. Errors are almost bound to be made. This being said, even IF the map is a faithful copy of the original by Jameson, he called the acequia running into the compound through the gap at the north end of the Granary, a proposed feature, not something which was actually completed. Now, as for Labastida, you will find no blind defender of him in me. I never at any time in my life called the Labastida map "correct." That's just not something I'd do. I fully realize that he made many, many mistakes, and a long and I'm sure wearisome series of posts last year between myself and Jake Ivey about the pros and cons of Labastida's map bears this out. What I am willing to say about Labastida is that, as Jake says all the time, every time an Alamo site is dug, where Labastida says there is a feature, it is found. This is not the same thing as saying that he drew the feature proportionally correct, however, as you point out, there are serious comparative size errors in his map. But that's not the same thing as saying what he drew did not exist.
|
|
homer
Full Member
Posts: 33
|
Post by homer on Feb 14, 2009 6:04:58 GMT -5
I wonder if we are looking at the same map. i have two of jameson,s the one with the big half moon lunettes is not the one i am looking at. This one just shows a ditch cutting into the ne corner of the cattle pen, just guessing but maybe 10 yards into. this map has flaws too tho, It just seem,s that if it wasnt there it should have been. Thousands of yards of ditches for crops , why not another 50yards for livestock. I have no idea whether it was there or not, i just seen the map and thought thats kind of a no brainer. I doubt the texans had the ambition to do it but cos may have had it done, if it was there.
|
|
|
Post by elcolorado on Feb 14, 2009 11:23:49 GMT -5
Homer,
I'm curious; what is the source of your particular "Jameson Map?" I have two of the purported maps and neither show a ditch passing through the livestock pen. Is your source a book?
Glenn
|
|
homer
Full Member
Posts: 33
|
Post by homer on Feb 14, 2009 12:06:23 GMT -5
I really don't remember which book i got it from, i only can find it on my computer now. I emailed you a picture of it. Hopefully you can post it, i'm having no luck.
|
|
|
Post by marklemon on Feb 14, 2009 16:43:40 GMT -5
There are a couple of plats in Nelson's book, dated 1848 and 1849which show a curving "loop" of the acequia leading towards the courtyards, but not actually penetrating the line corresponding to the east convento, or cattle pen walls. Rather, it crosses what appears to be a picket fence placed there by the Army. This same fence is seen tying into the rear of the church in sketches by Seth Eastman and James Gilchrist Benton. This curving loop must have been placed there by the army, in order to lead water into a livestock pen. No earlier map that I am aware of shows anything like this. Mark
|
|
homer
Full Member
Posts: 33
|
Post by homer on Feb 14, 2009 18:44:46 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by marklemon on Feb 14, 2009 22:53:09 GMT -5
I wouldn't recommend using that plat homer, as it clearly states that it is a combination of Jameson, Labastida, and Potter. All three of those plats, while correct in some respects, are grossly inaccurate in others, and to combine them, as this map does, only compounds the errors. But to the original point, the acequia branch that loops westward looks to be the same feature shown in Nelson's book, in two Army plats drawn by Everett, circa 1848/9. Only Everett clearly shows in both maps, the "loop" extending to a point that still falls short of original line of the eastern courtyard walls. We know from two different artists, Benton and Eastman(who painted it from two different directions) that the picket fence touched the NE corner of the outer face of the chancel of the church, and ran north, and according to Everett, a trained Army draftsman, the acequia branch looped just inside the picket fence, and then out again, but did not go far enough west to get close to the old Alamo courtyards. What appears to have happened, is that the person who complied the map to which you are referring, looked at Everett's two plats, but incorrectly transposed that graphically on the new map. Mark
|
|
|
Post by marklemon on Feb 14, 2009 22:56:24 GMT -5
I also believe that since this loop does not appear any earlier than the late 1840's, that it was placed there by the Army, in order to run inside the picket fence (corral) shown by Everett. Everett, in fact does show that the original course of the acequia was straight, as indicated by a dotted line, but that it had been changed to run into the corral.
|
|
|
Post by elcolorado on Feb 14, 2009 23:03:03 GMT -5
Homer,
That is an interesting map you found, though it has numerous errors. I don't know who sketched it but I think I can safely say it wasn't Jameson. The description below the map says it was a compilation based on maps drawn by Jameson, Potter, and La Bastida. Someone simply took the maps of three individuals and lumped them into one.
Glenn
|
|
homer
Full Member
Posts: 33
|
Post by homer on Feb 16, 2009 22:45:20 GMT -5
I just seen a couple of pictures or maps that showed a ditch going thru the corral.I,m in no way saying they are correct, just something to consider. If the well couldn,t supply 150 Texans, 30 cow's and few horses, how could it support 1,000 of Co,s men and quite a few calvary horses and some cattle.
Whats the best guess on the distance from the ditch to the pen?
Maybe it should have been worded. Why wouldn,t Cos or anyone run a ditch thru the corral.
|
|
homer
Full Member
Posts: 33
|
Post by homer on Feb 22, 2009 11:16:05 GMT -5
Well I,ve had no luck finding the other maps showing the ditch. I,m hoping I would know the difference between close to the coral and going thru it. But maybe i was in an alternate universe. I googled everything i could think of. I did run into the map from Blood of Noble Men, by Zaboly without a crease in the center. It was from one of the members in this site, in there photobucket type page. {cantador} ? Thought i downloaded it, guess not. I'd like too see that map again. Any help would be appreciated.
|
|
|
Post by sloanrodgers on Feb 22, 2009 15:28:03 GMT -5
It's always cool when someone brings something new and interesting to the forum. In the holy war against irresponsible history, we may pick it apart like so many ravenous vultures, but that doesn't negate the fact that someone brought it to our attention and put it on a plate. Discovery almost always leads to some form of dissection. Good work Homer. Take a donut.
|
|
homer
Full Member
Posts: 33
|
Post by homer on Feb 22, 2009 21:22:42 GMT -5
I never claimed anything, i just asked. Sorry but what does take a donut , mean.. I thought we im d as friends
|
|
|
Post by sloanrodgers on Feb 23, 2009 2:45:40 GMT -5
I didn't say that you claimed anything. My wordy ascription simply commends you and others for posting unknown or interesting documents on a sometimes skeptical forum. The donut offer was obviously a bad allusion to Homer Simpson (one of my favorite tv shows) and possibly inappropriate for this subject, but I certainly meant no offense. I intended it to be a doughy wreath of laurel for a nice discovery. I guess my wry wit failed me once again. Doh!
|
|
homer
Full Member
Posts: 33
|
Post by homer on Feb 23, 2009 11:40:07 GMT -5
My mistake then. I,m A Homer fan. Somehow I missed that one. I really didn't know what you ment.
|
|