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Post by garyzaboly on Mar 30, 2009 16:11:42 GMT -5
I've always wondered about that...where's the new evidence that Travis brought a flag into the Alamo? I've never seen it.
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Post by mustanggray on Mar 30, 2009 16:12:07 GMT -5
Kevin, It did indeed! Mr. Lemon, I misunderstood your reply apparently... I did indeed think you were saying the NOG's flag could have been flown as THE flag from a flagpole. I understand a bit about 19th century military colors and reproduce them from time to time. And just a PS here but... there were quite few Confederate flags made from wool bunting and the ones I've seen are in better shape than the silk standards.
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Post by stuart on Mar 30, 2009 16:22:37 GMT -5
What flag you flew was tricky. Philip Dimmitt was flying the Bloody Arm flag (rasied when the garrison declared Texas independence rather early in December 1835). When Grant showed up at Goliad on 10 January , he and his men had it taken down. Very tricky... Slightly off topic, but it was actually slightly more complicated. Dimmitt and his men certainly had that Bloody Arm flag but while it was a good piratical one I'm not convinced that there was any recognisable association with independence. When Grant arrived there en route to Matamoros, he and Dimmitt had an immediate falling out over supplies and as a consequence Dimmitt shut the gates and raised what he called the flag of independence on the walls of the presidio. Significantly neither Reuben Brown nor William Gordon Cooke refer to the arm and sword and I feel that on balance it was most likely the blue flag with a lone star and the word INDEPENDENCE belonging to the Lynchburg Volunteers which was raised in a direct challenge to Grant's 1824 flag.
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Post by stuart on Mar 30, 2009 16:31:21 GMT -5
I've always wondered about that...where's the new evidence that Travis brought a flag into the Alamo? I've never seen it. I'm sure somebody can quite chapter and verse, but essentially there is or appears to be a reference in Travis' account book to paying 5 dollars for a flag while on his way to Bexar. Beyond that we don't know anything about it, but its worth making two observations; first, since he wasn't going to Bexar as the garrison commander it was presumably intended for his planned cavalry regiment. Secondly, since he didn't elaborate as to its shape or form I think we can also rule out something custom-made to his own design. That would suggest it was the then current Texas flag, as appropriate for a regiment belonging to the regular army of Texas, ie; the 1824 flag. I need to check the date, but to the best of my recollection at this particular point in time he was expecting or at least hoping to go to Matamoros, so once again the 1824 flag would be logical. Now, as we know he didn't do anything of the sort and instead started shouting for independence and joining in the denunciations of Grant and 1824. Did he at that point have the stars painted or sewn on to his 5 dollar flag to replace the 1824?
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Post by marklemon on Mar 30, 2009 17:33:23 GMT -5
Well, all I can say is that it is just as easy for one to not see something he doesn't want to see, as it is for a person to see a thing which he does. The photo of the NOG flag I am referring to is in the first edition of Lord's A Time To Stand and while it is not in color, the staining I referred to is not in my imagination, but there for anyone reading this post to see for themselves, and it has nothing whatever to do with what I may "hope to look for." But remember, in my pointing these features out, that I am not calling them bloodstains, and have very clearly said that they may be something else. But they may be...and unless the photo has been retouched, and they are most definitely there. Now, can anyone here say with certainty that they are not? I'd like to here him say it, and then back it up. MHL
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Post by marklemon on Mar 30, 2009 17:47:41 GMT -5
el colorado wrote: Torres and Martinez were shot in an attempt to pull down an Alamo flag...but I seriously doubt it was the flag atop the Church. It had to have been somewhere else - but where? The two-story barracks seems a likely spot but the above action could have occurred most anywhere. Seriously, would a group(s) of untrained and undisciplined volunteers really give a darn about military customs, courtesy, or Protocol?? These were free-spirited men in highly individualized groups within a group struggling for national identity. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that if a man carried a flag into the Alamo he probably would have hoisted it - pride (southern?) canceling out military custom. This brings me to Travis' flag. I can't say for sure what his flag looked like but if he handed over five-dollars for it (a lot of money in those days) I think he would have insisted on getting his monies worth and flown it. And I find it difficult to believe that Travis or any other Anglo defender fighting for separation from Mexico would have approved of the two-star tricolor Mexican flag as the banner they would "proudly" fight under. That doesn't make much sense and clearly sends a mixed message. I think it's possible there were several flags in the Alamo. The Grey's may not have been the only group to have a flag representative of them. Since the majority of the Tejanos in the Alamo were fighting in support of the 1824 Constitution and not for separation, maybe Travis and Bowie allowed them to fly the two-star tricolor flag to keep them happy.
Glenn, Excellent points. I believe that strict military protocol, especially when it applied to a large grouping of volunteers, was the least of their concerns. John Richardson, the Alamo docent aptly put it this way when referring to the supposed "organized" breakout, where Sesma reported a large group of the garrison "marching out in an organized manner": "They didn't march anywhere..heck, they didn't march to dinner..." So, 19th century protocols regarding fortified places were not only a foreign concept to the untrained garrison, but to Travis himself, whose degree of military training and expertise would surely not risen to such nuances. MHL
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Post by garyzaboly on Mar 30, 2009 17:57:59 GMT -5
I enjoy theorizing about all the flags at the Alamo, but nowhere do I recall that there's any documentation verifying that Travis actually brought a flag with him into the Alamo. That would be news. As for the Greys flag, the repro in A TIME TO STAND was indeed in black and white, and very poor. The color one of 1965 showed its true "colors" and condition, and again it's really better to view the thing in this truer condition---the "staining" is simply the fraying of the fabric, which tends to blotch and blur in a poor monochromatic reproduction. But very clearly there are no bloodstains or bulletholes.
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Post by marklemon on Mar 30, 2009 18:59:50 GMT -5
To paraphrase Slim Pickens: "Ive been to two World's Fairs and a Rodeo, and I can tell the difference between frayed fabric and a stain..." We're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. And anyway, what is the fear of having stains on the NOG flag? I've already allowed as how they may have come from just about anywhere...don't have to be blood. They may have even come from the abuse heaped upon it when members of the Mexican government stomped on it in triumph. Black and white, or not, what I am looking at are stains. How can both spots, and what is clearly a large area of discoloration be called frayed fabric? By the way, I have just found my copy of American heritage's History of the Great West with its photo of the NOG flag(pg 173), and all I can say is..there they are, just like in Lord's book. But I'm sure that you are seeing what you believe to be something other than stains. Just as I am sure that what I am seeing ARE stains. Best thing at this point is to just let it go.
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Post by Kevin Young on Mar 30, 2009 19:41:13 GMT -5
Just a general note to all-I am enjoying the converstation.
That is a possibility and certainly makes some sense. As far as the Bloody Arm flag not being an indepedence flag and being piratical, I tend to remember that the Bedford Flag of the Bedford Mass Militia Company had the same type of arm (in armor) and that the MA State Militia Buttons had the design. Dimmitt may have been from Kentucky, but the detached arm holding the sword does some have connection to independence.
But this is a discussion about the flag at the Alamo and not Goliad...
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Post by marklemon on Mar 30, 2009 20:05:00 GMT -5
Just thought I'd throw this into the mix, as if there aren't enough confusing possibilities already....There is also the aggravating tidbit from Creed Taylor, who stated,concerning the, Dodson flag: "...it was left in the Alamo, and ......fragments were found in the ruins after the fall of the fortress." I realize that much of this account has been discredited, but it is interesting nonetheless. My understanding is that the Dodson flag made its way from Bexar to Washington-on-the-Brazos, and that it was flying over the Convention Hall as independence was declared.
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Post by garyzaboly on Mar 30, 2009 20:21:47 GMT -5
Regarding the Greys flag, the best thing to do is look at the large color reproduction of it in Time-Life's THE TEXANS, on page 100. There are no bulletholes or bloodstains or discoloration aside from dirt smudges and spots, and color fading. There are no real tears aside from fabric fraying and chipping. It is known that officials in Mexico City stamped on it in righteous anger, which probably explains much of the dirt. ) The poor photo of the flag in Lord's book makes blotted "stains" of the dirt smudges). The fringe is in impeccable shape---not a single fringe is missing. All this speaks volumes about the conditions "experienced" by the flag.
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Post by marklemon on Mar 30, 2009 20:38:35 GMT -5
As anyone can see from the photo in "The Texans," the flag was photographed after about 40 % of it had crumbled away and is no longer there. A backing has been applied to hold together what fragments remain. This is just about the worst example, color or not, to use when trying to determine the presence of stains...Almost the entire center section of the flag, with the exception of the letters, is gone! And still all of this notwithstanding....I can STILL see a few of the stains I referred to. The Lord photo may be "poor" in your opinion, but the flag is about 95% all there, and numerous stains OF SOMETHING are clearly visible.
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Post by garyzaboly on Mar 30, 2009 20:43:00 GMT -5
Adding fuel to the fire....regarding Travis' flag...who can say that he brought it into he Alamo? The late Tom Lindley called the Travis notebook a forgery, but we won't go there. However, said notebook ended its entries on February 17, and William C. Davis theorizes that it might have been left behind, in his headquarters room on Portreo Street---along with other items of his property---in the last-minute rush into the Alamo on February 23. Since there is no mention of a Travis flag after he purchased one in San Felipe on January 21---and there's also the possibility that he paid for it on order, that he didn't really have it, or his uniform, in hand, when he rode west---it too, could have been left behind in his Bexar room. En route to San Antonio on January 28, eight men deserted from him, taking away horses and equipment. Did one of them carry the flag away too? Just questions to ponder...before arriving at any solid conclusions. I can't say for sure. As for Torres and Martinez being shot down in the act of pulling down the church flag, as opposed to one placed elsewhere, it still makes better sense to me: the 3-gun ramp platform was one of the last gun positions to fall, and the rifles and muskets in the hands of the artillerymen did indeed hold up the Mexican ingress into the rear of the church. Since it was the only working flagpole on the fort that we know of, that appears to be where they were shot down.
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Post by garyzaboly on Mar 30, 2009 20:49:46 GMT -5
I don't see the stains in the Greys flag as reproduced in THE TEXANS, beyond a few minor spots, the rest being dirt smudges and irregularities of fraying and fading. My main point is being overlooked: no blood stains or bullet holes as earlier claimed. No evidence of ever being flown above the walls on a pole, as earlier claimed. The fringe is in perfect condition. These are incontestable points. This flag was not captured in battle or besplattered with blood. Tequila maybe.
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Post by Jim Boylston on Mar 30, 2009 21:27:34 GMT -5
from quincymorris:
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