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Post by garyzaboly on Feb 8, 2010 15:06:41 GMT -5
I've been re-translating the key Mexican Alamo documents, painstakingly mind you, from the standpoint of a 19th century military mind, and have discovered that so much has been mis-translated by people who often don't understand what was being referred to.
But the question remains: just WHO actually wrote that Lt. Torres, or any other Mexican soldier, took DOWN a Texian flag? I haven't found the original source, nor have I ever seen a concrete source reference for this, other than for Lt. Torres being killed after attempting to PLANT a Mexican color.
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Post by Kevin Young on Feb 8, 2010 15:35:59 GMT -5
I think you are on something here...
I'll go you one better-find me a primary source for the deguello being played...most reference back to the line in the translated de la Pena about the bugler sounding the awful call to destruction.
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Post by garyzaboly on Feb 8, 2010 16:05:25 GMT -5
Potter's 1878 FALL OF THE ALAMO has an early reference to the "assassin's" call to "no quarter," the DEGUELLO. He may have gotten this information from Sgt. Becerra or another Mexican veteran (remember he was at Matamoras when Sana Anna's troops retreated into Mexico, and he spoke to a number of them). Not certain if there's an earlier reference.
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Post by Kevin Young on Feb 8, 2010 16:31:11 GMT -5
Potter's 1878 FALL OF THE ALAMO has an early reference to the "assassin's" call to "no quarter," the DEGUELLO. He may have gotten this information from Sgt. Becerra or another Mexican veteran (remember he was at Matamoras when Sana Anna's troops retreated into Mexico, and he spoke to a number of them). Not certain if there's an earlier reference. Potter is about as close as you can get without a primary account. I know it is in their bugle calls, but the often cited reference in de la Pena does not say deguello, unless there is something wrong with the translation. Remember the often told story that in the 1936 translation of Ehrenberg the volunteers were threatened by prairie dogs where in fact it was "the dogs of the prairie."
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Post by stuart on Feb 8, 2010 16:46:23 GMT -5
Not to mention the problems with the rotten translation of his account of he and his friends kitting themselves out...
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Post by TRK on Feb 8, 2010 17:10:29 GMT -5
There's a plate in Nieto, Brown, and Hefter's El Soldado Mexicano that includes musical notation for the "Deguello," and it identifies it specifically as a bugle call for a cavalry charge. There were other bugle calls for infantry assaults, advances, etc. So, why would a cavalry charge be sounded in what was predominantly an infantry assault?
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Post by Allen Wiener on Feb 8, 2010 18:54:13 GMT -5
If the attack was intended as a surprise on the sleepy (sleeping?) Texians, why or when would such a bugle call have been sounded?
Re: Torres -- I had trouble finding many references to this, but the first I saw must have been in Lord. He says the sight of the New Orleans Greys' flag "made his [Torres'] blood boil." Lord has no citations in his book, but he probably got this from de la Pena's With Santa Anna in Texas, which states "...young Torres, died within the fort at the very moment of taking a flag." Carmen Perry's footnote suggests that this could only have been the New Orleans Greys' flag. In this passage, DLP does not use Torres' full name and does not mention anything about putting up a different flag. Tom Lindley (Alamo Traces) quotes a much longer excerpt from DLP's La Rebelion de Texas: Manuscrito inedito de 1836 Por Un Oficial de Santa Anna (Garza, ed. 1955): "A Lieutenant of Sappers, Jose Maria Torres was one that planted the three colors on the flagstaff. According to official, data, that lieutenant lost his life after finishing his epic exploit. It is another name to unite to the heroic saviors of the Flag and among those who have surrendered the due honor dying for her!" Here DLP says nothing about tearing down a flag, only planting one; he also uses Torres' full name and the wording suggests that DLP got this story from someone else ("According to official data").
Allen
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Post by garyzaboly on Feb 9, 2010 7:21:56 GMT -5
Right, Allen, I'm familiar with all those printed extracts, and the lack of original source citations is galling. Perry's version of De la Pena does use the words "taking a flag," but another Mexican contemporary, describing Torres' death, uses the words "planting a flag." I suspect Perry misconstrued and mistranslated, but I don't have access to the original Spanish. The secondary writers, assuming so much, have frequently made a hash of the actual history. To quote Harvey from THE ALAMO, "some Indian told some vaquero...but good day." Planting a regimental color on an enemy fort, and getting shot in the process, is easy to accept. But again, thus far there's no evidence of the taking down of the Texians' flag.
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Post by TRK on Feb 9, 2010 8:54:44 GMT -5
The translation in Lindley of the extract from La Rebelion de Texas left out some critical wording. Here's how the first two sentences of the extract concerning Torres actually read:
"El teniente de Zapadores José María Torres fué el que quitó la bandera texana de lo alto del fuerte y que plantó en el asta la de tres colores. Segun los datos officiales, aquel teniente perdió la vida despues de consumar la épica hazana."
Which translates:
"The lieutenant of Zapadores José María Torres was the one who removed the Texan banner from the top of the fort and planted on the staff the tricolors. According to official information, that lieutenant lost his life after consummating the epic feat."
So much for the published version in La Rebelion de Texas. I'd sooner see the wording in the original manuscript.
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Post by Allen Wiener on Feb 9, 2010 9:10:13 GMT -5
Gary, I'm surprised at how common this sort of thing is. Jim and I had similar experiences researching the Crockett book. The earlier Crockett literature showed a consistent lack of understanding of what the documentary evidence was actually saying or real context to what Crockett said and did. And those documents didn't need translating. However, they did require learning contemporary vernacular and researching the issues of the day before they made real sense. For example, it was typical to read that Crockett conspired with Whigs to undermine the Jacksonians, when, in fact, the opposite was true. The Jacksonians, led by James K. Polk, conspired early on to put an end to Crockett's political career. I can only imagine the additional layer of difficulty in getting through the language barrier and attempting to evaluate various translations.
Exactly what is the status of the de la Pena papers at this point and where are they right now? Can researchers have access to them, get photo copies, etc.? Is there any chance that they will be posted online at some point? It has never been made clear to me what these papers actually consist of (diary, published memoir, scattered notes and drafts, all from various time periods and in different handwriting). Sorting and making sense of this stuff might be a project in itself, perhaps requiring several credible translators going through them and coming up with an agreed-upon translation. Another problem is distinguishing what is first-hand reporting, what was learned second-hand, and how much is de la Pena's editorializing to push a political agenda or his version of events. Quite a daunting task!
Allen
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Post by Allen Wiener on Feb 9, 2010 9:13:57 GMT -5
Tom, thanks for posting that. That's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. I have not seen a translation of La Rebellion, but I'm guessing there are similar problems with Perry's translation of With Santa Anna in Texas. Real clarification will only come with access to the original Spanish-language documents, which should be published in some form (online, etc.).
Allen
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Post by garyzaboly on Feb 9, 2010 13:46:53 GMT -5
Right, Tom, and that's my point: Sanchez-Garza was a modern writer with a penchant for embellishing and rewording things. In fact that "quote" smacks of invention. I'd wager that De la Pena did not write anything like that.
Allen, with every shovelful I dig into Alamo-related history I am increasingly amazed at all the undiscovered country lying underfoot.
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Post by Kevin Young on Feb 9, 2010 16:24:32 GMT -5
Right, Tom, and that's my point: Sanchez-Garza was a modern writer with a penchant for embellishing and rewording things. In fact that "quote" smacks of invention. I'd wager that De la Pena did not write anything like that. Allen, with every shovelful I dig into Alamo-related history I am increasingly amazed at all the undiscovered country lying underfoot. Good question Gary.
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Post by Hiram on Feb 9, 2010 20:04:35 GMT -5
Exactly what is the status of the de la Pena papers at this point and where are they right now? Can researchers have access to them, get photo copies, etc.? Is there any chance that they will be posted online at some point? It has never been made clear to me what these papers actually consist of (diary, published memoir, scattered notes and drafts, all from various time periods and in different handwriting). Sorting and making sense of this stuff might be a project in itself, perhaps requiring several credible translators going through them and coming up with an agreed-upon translation. Another problem is distinguishing what is first-hand reporting, what was learned second-hand, and how much is de la Pena's editorializing to push a political agenda or his version of events. Quite a daunting task! Allen Allen, La Rebelion de Texas is part of the John Peace Collection, Archives and Special Collections Department, UTSA Library here in San Antonio. The Rebelión de Texas collection is comprised of original documents and typescripts, as well as copies of manuscript and typescript documents related to the publication of La Rebelión de Texas. The documents consist of historical manuscripts, copies and transcriptions of original documents, dated 1825-1840. Other documents, mostly undated but circa 1954, consist of letters, newspaper articles, transcriptions, drafts and notes probably created or used by Sánchez Garza for the publication. Dr. Crisp in his introduction to the expanded edition of With Santa Anna in Texas describes the "diary" as actually consisting of two drafts. The first one consists of 109 sequentially numbered pages in diary form. The second draft consists of 105 folded quartos, amounting to just over 400 pages, and its this longer draft which is used for publication. Dr. David B. Gracy II, Governor Bill Daniel Professor in Archival Enterprise at UT-Austin, examined the drafts and wrote his findings in SHQ, Volume CV, (Oct. 2001), Just As I Have Written It: A Study of the Authenticity of the Manuscript of Jose Enrique de la Pena's Account of the Texas Campaign.Gracy's work was not in determining the correctness of the translation, but in determing the authenticity of the drafts. Carmen Perry's papers are also archived in Austin, at the Briscoe Center for American History, UT-Austin. Her papers consist mostly of typescripts, notes and research material related to her translation work of de la Pena's drafts. In a perfect world, someone would publish an annotated edition of La Rebelion de Texas, complete with alternative translations and framing first-hand material versus second-hand material. Any takers?
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Post by Allen Wiener on Feb 9, 2010 20:19:49 GMT -5
Thanks for posting that info, Hiram. I need to dig out that edition of With Santa Anna in Texas and also look again at Crisp's Sleuthing the Alamo, which also includes background info on these documents.
I'm still a bit puzzled; has La Rebelion de Texas ever been published as a single volume? From your post, I gather that With Santa Anna in Texas, published (and quite possibly edited/embellished) by Garza and translated by Carmen Perry is the second, longer version of the "diary," which sounds more like a rewrite based on the actual diary, which is the shorter version. I may be way off base here and welcome any clarification. Meanwhile, back to the books!
I would hope that someone would see fit to publish the entire body of documents at some point, with full translation.
Allen
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