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Post by jagjetta on May 18, 2007 13:22:38 GMT -5
Thank you so much, Wolfpack. What I was able to find last night in my own library confirms what you say: that the acquisitions were given to select members and not just handed to complete companies.
I know I am spending too much time on this one, but I am intrigued by the one reference to Indiana rifle companies having revolving rifles. You and Tom K. have sure provided some tasty morsels of info!
Best regards, John A-G
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Post by Herb on May 18, 2007 13:39:18 GMT -5
I know I am spending too much time on this one, but I am intrigued by the one reference to Indiana rifle companies having revolving rifles. You and Tom K. have sure provided some tasty morsels of info! I don't think so, just following what you and Tom are doing is interesting - at least to me! ;D
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Post by jagjetta on May 18, 2007 14:35:21 GMT -5
Thank you so much, Wolfpack for the extra info!
In regard to the other half of my question, "What rifles did Co. A, 1st Illinois (the 'Quincy Riflemen') carry, I can fill in these details from Edward Everett, A Narrative of Military Experiences in Several Capacities", Publication No. 10 of th eIllinois State Historical Library, Transactions of the Illinois State Histoircal Society for 1905. Springfield: Illinois State Journal, 1906:
p. 186 "...the men carried old-fashioned flint-lock rifles." [refers to their campaign as a Volunteer Militia unit against the Mormons, 1843-1845].
p. 196. Referring to their equipment before leaving Illinois for Mexico in 1846: "In addition to rifles, our company was armed with artillery swords. They were about two feet long and two inches broad and double edged and were a formidable addition to our means of offense at close quarters."
But, these weapons were replaced when they arrived in Texas and were at Camp Irwin: p. 199. "We here received our new rifles and other equipment." A note on this page seems to imply these rifles were also flintlock. Apparently they kept their short swords because on the next page, Everett says, p. 200. "We shouldered our knapsacks containing our personal baggage, which with blankets, haversacks containing provisions for the day, canteens holding a bout a quart of water, together with swords, rifles, cartridge boxes and ammunitions [bold added] made up a considerable load to carry..."
So, the question is, what type of rifles were issued to the Riflemen once they arrived at Camp Irwin?
John A-G Iola, WI
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Post by jagjetta on May 28, 2007 19:32:59 GMT -5
I hope folks are not becoming tired of this thread, but I wanted to report that I found some info that corroborates TRK's theory that the 2nd Dragoon's revolving carbines ended up in the Baton Rouge Arsenal. In the Senate's report no. 257, 31st Congress, 2nd Session (January 30, 1851), (then) General Harney reported, "In 1837 or 1838, Mr. Colt took some of his rifles to Florida...General Jesup ordered the purchase of fifty, and they were placed in my hands...They were the first ever used or manufactured. Thirty-odd of them were lost at Caloosa Hatchee all at the time in good order; and most of the others, with but little repairs, would be still good, and were turned over to the ordnance officer at Baton Rouge in 1842 or '43... (italics added)." I am quoting the reproduction of the report as it appeared in Charles T. Haven and Frank A. Belden, A History of the Colt Revolver and the Other Arms Made by Colt's Patent Fire Arms Manufacturing Company from 1836 to 1940 (New York: Bonznza Books, 1940), p. 308.
As for thenumber of the arms deposited by Harney at Baton Rouge, Harney wrote on Feb. 6, 1839, "I have in my possession some twelve or fifteen months...fifty..." (ibid, p. 264).
Subsequent U.S. Army purchases of Colt's carbines (prior to the Mexican War) included:
100 Carbines on March 2, 1841 at $45 ea. 60 Carbines on July 23, 1841 at $45 ea. (ibid, p. 389)
John A-G
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Post by TRK on May 28, 2007 20:47:23 GMT -5
I hope folks are not becoming tired of this thread Uh uh. Pass the popcorn, please
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Post by Jim Boylston on May 28, 2007 20:52:08 GMT -5
Don't worry about us tiring of the thread, John. Trust me, most of us find this stuff fascinating. I wonder how often any of these Colt Rifles were used in the 2nd Seminole War down here in Florida. jim
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Post by jagjetta on May 29, 2007 21:29:49 GMT -5
Well, as for Colt repeating rifles in Florida, by various accounts, at least 30 of them ended up in the Caloosahatchee River. The stories of disposal range from the rifles being sunk in the zink-lined, air-tight boxes from the Patterson factory (personally, I have never encountered a zinc-lined rifle shipping box, but I suppose it is possible. See "Florida's Fabulous Treasures" at www.treasurelore.com/florida/florida_treasure.htm ) to the 30 being thrown in the river by Seminoles after massacring a large number of soldiers (Robert M. Reilly, United States Military Small Arms, 1816-1865. n.p.: The Eagle Press, 1970, p. 41). There is a curious letter written by Captain G.T. Rains, Co A, 7th U.S. Infantry in which he states, "...when at Fort King, East Florida, I applied to the ordnance depot at Garey's Ferry, Black Creek for these arms for my companyh and was informed that there were none on hand..." Rains was writing a testimonial for the Colt factory. Many seem to think he was talking about revolvers, but I am not so sure about this. Further in the letter he clearly states, "This weapon is EIGHT [my caps] times as efficient as a musket..." In my opinion, this reference is to the eight shots of the first pattern Colt/Patterson revolving rifle and not to revolvers. Furthermore, it would seem quite unlikely that an Infantry officer would want to supply his foot soldiers with handguns! [Letter reproduced in Charles T. Haven and Frank A. Belden, A History of the Colt Revolver and the Other Arms Made by Colt's Patent Fire Arms Manufacturing Company from 1836 to 1940 (New York: Bonznza Books, 1940), p. 33.] John A-G
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Post by Jim Boylston on May 29, 2007 22:57:27 GMT -5
Thanks, John. I've been digging around a bit today and found a copy of the Mahon book at the library. There are a couple of references to Colt firearms in Mahon's "The Second Seminole War". Writing of correspondence from Jesup to the supply department, "He was willing to try new firearms, such as Colt's revolvers and Cochran's repeaters."[p.211] Later Mahon writes: "...a board of officers tested Samuel Colt's newly invented revolver. The inventor himself came to Florida and carried his weapons to the remotest posts in order to obtain a trial for them. Most of the officers found them too much subject to misfire, and too frequently apt to backfire. Lt. Col. William S. Harney, on the other hand, liked and used Colt's rifles."[p.237] Describing the mop up after Taylor's capture of Holatoochee, he writes: "Harney picked 50 dragoons from his own regiment, the Second, and armed them with Colt's rifles. Fifty men were drawn from the Third Artillery and equipped with muskets."[p.261] Writing again of Harney, in 1839: "In July, James B. Dallam, an infantryman who liked Florida and wished to remain there, was appointed trader, and a force of twenty-six men, armed with Colt's rifles, under Lt. Col. William Selby Harney, Second Dragoons, was assigned to give him protection while the new post was being established."[p.261] Later, in 1841, this, relating to an expedition under the command of John T. McLaughlin, USN: "This trek occupied 2 months and was so grueling that some of McLaughlin's men collapsed from a 'regular cave in' of their constitutions. Thirty of them carried Colt rifles which, as far as the commander was concerned, had also caved in. Five rifles had burst upon firing, injuring the sailors who handled them. McLaughlin said he fully intended to return to muskets."[p.304] And this: "New shoulder arms received at least perfunctory trials. Lt. Col. Harney seems to have been the only commander sold on Colt's rifles, but Samuel Colt did all he could to establish them. In the summer of 1840 he even offered to raise a battalion of men and arm them with his rifle, but Secretary Poinsett told him this could not be done under existing regulations. Nevertheless, both the army and navy tried Colt's rifles. Not so the Ordinance Department. It began in 1840 to turn out a new model, a flintlock, notwithstanding that the chief of ordinance believed flint and steel firing mechanisms to be obsolete."[p.289] Jim
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Post by jagjetta on May 30, 2007 7:46:21 GMT -5
Jim: Thanks so much for these notes! They help fill in picture quite nicely. Several secondary references that I have glanced at in the last couple of weeks seem to suggest that Harney received two shipments of 50 guns from Colt. Yet, other references indicate that Harney received only 50 guns. Thoughts?
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Post by Jim Boylston on May 30, 2007 10:41:31 GMT -5
Searching around this morning, I turned this up on Google Books: Guns In America: A Reader by Muth, Dizard, and Andrews, 1999, NYU Press This is a collection of essays, and includes "Guns, Gun Culture, and the Peddling of Dreams" by William Hosley. From that essay: "During the Paterson era, Colt emphasized rifles and carbines, and his first governmet contract for one hundred rifles, purchased during the Seminole War, were priced at ninety dollars, then the equivalent of almost seven thousand dollars. Small wonder they weren't flying off the shelves."[p.83, note 128] Jim
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Post by TRK on Jul 1, 2007 12:07:54 GMT -5
re. the rifles the Quincy Riflemen drew at Camp Irwin, Texas, as referenced in Edward Everett, "A Narrative of Military Experiences in Several Capacities, " p. 199. "We here received our new rifles and other equipment." A note on this page seems to imply these rifles were also flintlock. I dug out my copy of this article, and the footnote actually appears to have been written by the editor of the piece, not Everett. It just states the opinion that during the Mexican War, most U.S. firearms were flintlock, rather than percussion cap. Clearly, the editor didn't know what type of rifles the QR drew in Texas, so I'd not rule out the possiblity that they were percussion rifles.
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Post by Kevin Young on Mar 15, 2009 14:15:29 GMT -5
How goes your research on the Quincey Rifles?
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Post by TRK on Mar 15, 2009 18:06:02 GMT -5
I had an email on this subject from John (jagjetta) the other day, and he said that he hasn't done anything with his Quincy Rifles project for some time. He's busy with other stuff, including a standard guide of Civil War firearms that's due out this year.
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Post by Kevin Young on Mar 15, 2009 19:12:01 GMT -5
Thanks for the update-the Quincey Rifles and Edward Everett have been an interest of mine and I am working on a study of Illinois in the Mexican War.
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Post by wmslaw1 on Jul 25, 2010 23:21:33 GMT -5
another writer has already referenced this site re Rifles into Mexico ... but re Illinois and Mexican War in general ... Publication, Issue 10 By Illinois State Historical Society, Illinois State Historical Library appears to have a lot of info ... you can read it online at Google books
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