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Post by Jim Boylston on Aug 22, 2007 16:45:26 GMT -5
I don't remember any details about the TRL article, and the only info I have on hand is in Gary Brown's book, "The New Orleans Grays". He cites Lindley's July '92 Alamo Journal article on artillery as his source. I couldn't turn up any info on the carriage. The gun was transported from New Orleans via the schooner Columbus. It was off loaded and left behind in Velasco, then placed on the schooner San Felipe, but was nearly lost in a shipwreck at Matagorda. The gun was salvaged at a cost of $136, then shipped via the schooner William Robbins to the Brazos. The next mention has the gun being transported from Dimmit's Landing to San Antonio by a Mr. Johnson of the NO Grays. (Brown, "The New Orleans Grays, pp. 35-36) Jim
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Post by Herb on Aug 22, 2007 20:54:47 GMT -5
I can't really remember the account Tom found, I want to say it was from the land office records, and was by a Tejano, but I'm really not sure. But, he told his role, in bringing the 18 pounder from the coast to San Antonio, and specifically mentioned (this I recall) that they arrived in Bexar after Cos's surrender.
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Post by mlemon on Aug 22, 2007 23:01:47 GMT -5
Rich, It is highly unlikely than many, if any, Alamo guns were on garrison carriages. I don't have my notes on the guns' origins handy, but I remember that most, or many of them were captured Mexican guns (including the nine pounders), which of course would be on field carriages. The guns in the Cos battery (church) would also have been on field carriages. This is due to the muzzle clearance necessary . The platform was 12 feet high, with a parapet of 3 to 3.5 feet. This is too high to accomodate a gun on a garrison, or naval carriage, which requies a much lower parapet height. My many, many conversations with Rick range, who has spent probably as much or more time than anyone other than Lindley did, on this question, and he's of the opinion that perhaps only the two 3 pounders, placed facing the rear of the south gate, may have been on garrison carriages. One of the main reasons he cites (but not the only one) is that moving such guns about on the prairie would have been next to impossible unless mounted on field carriages. Mark
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Post by stuart on Aug 23, 2007 1:26:05 GMT -5
While I agree that moving guns about on the prairie required field carriages that also assumes that there were intended for mobile use. If on the other hand they were brought to Bexar specifically to add to the defences then there's no reason why they shouldn't have been carried there in carts or wagons.
As I said above, the 18 pounder, the Long Nines now at La Villita and the gunnade were all originally naval guns
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Post by Jim Boylston on Aug 23, 2007 8:53:57 GMT -5
I can't really remember the account Tom found, I want to say it was from the land office records, and was by a Tejano, but I'm really not sure. But, he told his role, in bringing the 18 pounder from the coast to San Antonio, and specifically mentioned (this I recall) that they arrived in Bexar after Cos's surrender. Gray does say that the 18 pounder didn't arrive until after the battle of Bexar.
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Post by stuart on Aug 23, 2007 9:05:33 GMT -5
It was Tom Person's men who brought it up from the coast and they were probably heartily glad to see the back of it once they were done. I really need to check the Cos list when I get back from the office but I'm pretty sure that the guns Grant took with him were those listed as being on carriages.
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Post by Jim Boylston on Aug 23, 2007 9:26:41 GMT -5
Brown mentions Pearson as having been listed as the man who led the group accompanying the gun, stating that the info came from the Pruett and Cole book "The Goliad Massacre", but he claims that Morris' muster roll at Velasco does not include any NO Gray by that name. There was a "Mr. Johnson" listed in the party, and there is a Francis Johnson on the rolls, so Brown assumes they are one and the same. jim
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Post by marklemon on Aug 23, 2007 11:46:21 GMT -5
As far as I am aware, there is no documentation which differentiates the available guns by their specific mounting method. Saying a gun is on a "carriage" can mean either naval (garrison) or field, and caution should be exercized when trying to read too much interpretation into this single word. Also, the fact that a gun was originally built as a naval piece, would have meant nothing whatever to the Texians, who had decidely different usages in mind for them. My understanding is that a blacksmith mounted the 18 pounder to a field carriage (using wagon wheels) in Velasco during its journey to Texas on or about October 22, 1835. Also, bear in mind that naval carriages have a significantly lower muzzle clearance, meaning that with a 2 to 21/2 foot parapet atop the Charli carpernter shop (where the 18 ponder was emplaced) the muzzle of a naval-mounted tube would have just cleared the top of it, meaning that the barrel would have had no depression capability. Mark
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Post by stuart on Aug 23, 2007 14:29:37 GMT -5
Found it:
The December 13 list of artillery and small arms surrendered at Bexar included: “2 four-pound cannon, mounted, 1 small brass do., 1 four-pound field-piece, 1 do. three-pounder, complete, l rammer, 1 cannon, four pounder, with carriage and rammer,1 iron culverine of nine-inch calibre, mounted, 1 howitzer of five-inch calibre, 1 cannon, six pounder, 1 field-piece, four-pounder, 1 cannon, three-pounder, mounted, 1 ditto six-pounder, mounted, 257 carabines and muskets.”
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Post by elcolorado on Nov 2, 2007 12:00:17 GMT -5
In Green B. Jameson's map key (H.), he describes the North extension of the East wall as: "soldiers' quarters built out of adobe houses and picketed all around as in B.W (breastworks)."
Mark interpreted this to mean "jacales." But I was wondering if the "breastworks" Green described in his map and the "breastworks" mentioned by Potter are one and the same?? Could he have meant something else? I'm not totally convinced that "Breastworks" equals "Jacales." Sorry, Mark.
In map key (I.), what did Green mean by: "strong wall without pickets around"?
Glenn
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Post by marklemon on Nov 2, 2007 19:14:30 GMT -5
In Green B. Jameson's map key (H.), he describes the North extension of the East wall as: " soldiers' quarters built out of adobe houses and picketed all around as in B.W (breastworks)." Mark interpreted this to mean "jacales." But I was wondering if the "breastworks" Green described in his map and the "breastworks" mentioned by Potter are one and the same?? Could he have meant something else? I'm not totally convinced that "Breastworks" equals "Jacales." Sorry, Mark. In map key (I.), what did Green mean by: "strong wall without pickets around"? Glenn It's pretty obvious to me that GB Jameson was not familiar with the term "jacal," or "palisade," neither of which he uses in his key. They would have served him well in describing the southern courtyard defensive position (palisade), and the jacales, which he prefers to call "picketed" structures, which, in a sense, they were. When he says that the adobe structures are "picketed," I take him to mean that the walls are partially rebuilt by the placement of vertical posts, or "pickets," and, if one looked at the palisade, one would have immediately seen the strong similarity between a palisade, and a jacal, since both are essentially the same thing (vertical posts placed side by side.) Jameson seems to be struggling to describe the jacal structures, saying that they are "picketed all around as in B.W." The "B.W." he refers to has been shown by archeology to be a single palisade barrier. So what he is trying to say, by comparing the northern extension rooms to "B.W." (palisade),is that the crumbling structures have been reenforced by vertically placed posts. I suppose we can speculate forever on the nuances of meaning for one or two words, but to me it seems fairly obvious he's trying to say that these rooms (we know they were in terrible shape) have been reenforced, probably along their front west facing walls, by "pickets," or posts, just like the palisaded "B.W." I passed this interpretation along to Jake Ivey, who better than anyone knows the intricate details of the place, and his response was "exactly!" This explaination may not be clear, but it's about the best I can manage right now..been up for 24 hours with no sleep.
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Post by elcolorado on Nov 3, 2007 20:11:52 GMT -5
Mark
No sleep..again! Are you on 24 hour missile watch or are you working on another book?
O.K. If the structures you designated as jacales are truly jacales...oh my gosh! What fire-traps!! The Mexicans didn't need to blast the Texans out. They could have simply burned the Texans out.
Get some sleep, Mark. Before Abe Lincoln and the Beaver start to follow you round.
Glenn
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Post by marklemon on Nov 3, 2007 23:01:50 GMT -5
Mark No sleep..again! Are you on 24 hour missile watch or are you working on another book? O.K. If the structures you designated as jacales are truly jacales...oh my gosh! What fire-traps!! The Mexicans didn't need to blast the Texans out. They could have simply burned the Texans out. Get some sleep, Mark. Before Abe Lincoln and the Beaver start to follow you round. Glenn Glenn, My job as a P.I. , with the subsequent report-writing eats up my day, and lately I've been following a guy who works construction and gets to work at 6:00A.M. and off at 6:00P.M. What with all the paperwork after I get home, I might as well just stay up. I am rapidly reaching burnout phase, and will soon just take a day and sleep for as long as I can. I have just finished 7 illustrations that need to be Fedexed to the editor ASAP, so that she can include them in the book. Right now she's laying out the book's format, and I'm anxious to see what it'll look like. I may have one (but probably ONLY one) more Alamo book in me, and it'll be out in a couple more years, but after this one, I'm gonna just sit back and enjoy being a part of the peanut gallery. mark
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Post by marklemon on Nov 20, 2007 10:44:41 GMT -5
Wanted to give a quick update on the book. The publisher now has all artwork, text, and photographs, and has almost finished laying out the book. In a day or so, they will send it to me for final approval, then just after Thanksgiving, they'll send it off for printing. The book is still on track, and will be available during the latter half of February. I have had to struggle a bit with the editor to keep some of the book's contents, that she thought wasn't necessary, but that I felt strongly about keeping, i.e.: an appendix concerning the three most likely Alamo flags, and more importantly, a series of four ground-level views, from all four compass quadrants, showing the entire compound from those directions. In the end, it's all staying in.
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Post by marklemon on Dec 22, 2007 21:54:20 GMT -5
For those interested, you can get a sneak peek at the inside of my book on Amazon.com. Look under "The Illustrated Alamo 1836 by Mark Lemon," under the topic "books."Then click on the "Search Inside" feature icon. Once you're on the Amazon Online Reader, click on the various icons on the left ("Front cover," "Front flap," "Excerpt" and "Surprise Me." Going back and forth to the "Surprise Me" icon will take you to different portions of the book each time. I noticed the list price went up from 39.99 to 49.99. This is news to me.....I guess those who pre-ordered the book several weeks ago got a deal.
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