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Post by 5thgentexan on Jan 16, 2015 9:14:37 GMT -5
Great topic and one I have wondered about. Another thought is a lot of people in Texas at that time probably couldn't read and write. There very well may have been much discussion and questions asked, but simply nothing written down. Not to mention the propensity for major fires with dry, non-treated wood structures, wood-burning stoves, and fireplaces. Who knows what has went up in flames over the years? Also, given no one was 100% sure the Mexican army wasn't coming back, being publically identified with the Texians might not be a good idea. I can also attest to those who simply do not like to talk about such events. My father did not like to speak about his service in the South Pacific in WWII. It just brought back too many bad memories for him.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jan 16, 2015 14:14:23 GMT -5
I agree on all counts. We know a lot of archives and original documents went up in flames with the first Austin capitol building -- we just don't know what. Also, you make a very interesting point about Texians and Tejanos alike fearing Mexican Army reprisals. There was constant rumor that they were just south of the Rio Grande and ready to return -- and finally did in 1841 and again in 1842, when Sam Maverick and other Bexarenos were marched all the way down to Mexico City and imprisoned. It must have taken lots of intestinal fortitude to say ANYTHING suggesting you supported the war of independence -- particularly since the Mexican government hadn't acknowledged Texas as independent yet!!! Never thought about it before.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jan 16, 2015 14:17:41 GMT -5
Ronald, I love your post-movie Waynamo avatar!
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Post by mjbrathwaite on Jan 18, 2015 0:40:07 GMT -5
Incidentally, and really off topic, I'm finishing a book called "A Peace to End All Peace" by David Fromkin, which traces events in the Mid East during World War I and is the very best source I've found that explains much of why the region is the way it is today. Much of it is from the British point of view because the British were the prime movers in the region at the time and called a lot of the shots, frequently with the poorest intel or understanding of the people who lived in the region. The Foreign Office in London often held very different images of the place than the British officials in Cairo and India. Later, many "official" documents were either destroyed or rewritten to reflect more positively on the people who were involved, so that history was actively being destroyed or altered. Nonetheless, the author managed to find out most of what had actually happened. Although it's quite long and often gets way down in the weeds, anyone interested in the Mid East today really ought to read this book. My former boss at the Dept. of Transportation volunteered for 2 one-year civilian tours in Iraq and worked on transportation infrastructure rebuilding. He told me that everyone who was sent there was told to read that book. I understand Lawrence of Arabia sometimes gets blamed for the state of the Middle East today. Prince Feisal wanted a Middle East where people of the various Semitic religions could live in harmony, and Lawrence aided his attempts. We all know how that ended up, but I doubt that such men of good will could have envisioned people like Osama Bin Laden.
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Post by Allen Wiener on Jan 18, 2015 15:19:22 GMT -5
The book I mentioned does not have a high opinion of Lawrence, but mainly because of all the lies and exaggerations he told, not only inflating his own exploits and importance, but also flatly lying to his own countrymen about what he did or did not tell his Arab contacts. Feisal wanted more territory than Britain was willing to give him and it's questionable how many people he represented or how much of a role his forces played in British victories in the Mid East (or even how large that force was). The main miscue here was that Britain (and the other European players) totally misread the situation in the Mid East and believed many things that were not at all true, particularly that any of the Muslim regions would welcome being governed or overseen by non-Muslim, European powers. Although some British officials in Indian and Egypt were aware of this, they were not listened to and some, particularly Kitchner, seemed clueless. In the end, something like the Sykes-Picot agreement ended up in place, which drew arbitrary boundaries throughout what used to be the Ottoman Empire with little regard for the demographics of the region or sensitivity to traditional rivalries and turf, of religious differences. Much of what we see today grew out of that.
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Post by mjbrathwaite on Jan 18, 2015 15:51:36 GMT -5
It looks like I may have got the wrong impression about Lawrence: apart from a biography I read as a child, the only books I've read on the war in the Middle East (apart from the war diaries of one of my grandfathers who fought there in World War 1, and to my surprise didn't mention Lawrence) are "Seven Pillars of Wisdom", in which Lawrence agonizes over the lies he has to tell the Arabs, and Lowell Thomas's "With Lawrence in Arabia", which describes Lawrence as "a modern Arabian night".
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Post by Allen Wiener on Jan 19, 2015 10:32:41 GMT -5
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Post by mjbrathwaite on Jan 20, 2015 0:47:15 GMT -5
Thanks, Allen. I must admit that even after studying Middle-East politics at university, I find the Muslim mentality difficult to understand, although I quite like some of their religious views, such as the one whereby one is judged by one's intentions rather than the law. Feisal comes across in the books by Lawrence and Thomas as an enlightened leader whose father was something of a liability. I love his response to a French diplomat's claims in Syria, which he said were based on the Crusades: Feisal responded, "I am not a profound student of history, but would you kindly tell me just which one of us won the Crusades?" Incidentally, although I know this isn't the thread in which to discuss it, I've been wondering if you're the Allen Wiener who has written a book on Elvis's TV appearances.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jan 20, 2015 1:29:08 GMT -5
This is why they didn't interview more people about the Alamo. Everybody was talking about Lawrence of Arabia. LOL.
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Post by Jim Boylston on Jan 20, 2015 8:23:42 GMT -5
Incidentally, although I know this isn't the thread in which to discuss it, I've been wondering if you're the Allen Wiener who has written a book on Elvis's TV appearances. He is, and it's doing quite well! Jim
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jan 20, 2015 11:43:24 GMT -5
And Allen AND Jim are the guys who researched and wrote the ubiquitous "David Crockett in Congress," opening a whole new understanding and appreciation in me for Crockett's political years.
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Post by mjbrathwaite on Jan 20, 2015 21:02:06 GMT -5
This is why they didn't interview more people about the Alamo. Everybody was talking about Lawrence of Arabia. LOL.[/quote Sorry about that!
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jan 21, 2015 0:42:38 GMT -5
This is why they didn't interview more people about the Alamo. Everybody was talking about Lawrence of Arabia. LOL. Sorry about that! LOL.
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Post by Paul Sylvain on Jan 21, 2015 18:56:33 GMT -5
I like your avatar. Who did the painting? It must be from other images and not from visiting the site, since the pole with the bell is in reality the corner post of the wooden stairs waaaaaaaaay over on the low barrack to the right. No matter. The painting rocks. Gary Zaboly posted it on his FaceBook page a few months back, with the following not: "Pastel done at age 17. A messy medium if you're not careful. In those days I would blow off the excess chalk dust from the artwork's surface, and sometimes it would land as a thin colored layer on the LP record playing on my turntable." I like it a lot, too, and thought it would make a great avatar here. Paul
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Post by Allen Wiener on Jan 22, 2015 0:58:58 GMT -5
Incidentally, although I know this isn't the thread in which to discuss it, I've been wondering if you're the Allen Wiener who has written a book on Elvis's TV appearances. Yes - I meant to post something on the authors thread. My book, Channeling Elvis: How Television Saved the King of Rock 'n' Roll was recently published and can be purchased in paperback or Kindle e-book editions from Amazon at this link in the U.S.: tinyurl.com/mhyaouz; in the U.K., the paperback is at this link: tinyurl.com/kyolbnm and the Kindle at this one: tinyurl.com/qdbk9cbMy authors Facebook page is at this link: tinyurl.com/pofg47vMy blog can be read here: allenwienerblog.blogspot.comOK - end of shameless self-promotion!! Allen
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