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Post by Rich Curilla on Jan 8, 2014 0:26:31 GMT -5
I am interested because just south and east of the Jose de la Baume property is a property of my ancestor Ramon Fuentes. Seems to be located under the Hemisphere Tower Ha! Good luck on getting it back. Are you good at whipping a tablecloth out from under place settings without breaking a dish? lol. Don't stop here, Ray. Go back a page and read my more intelligent comments.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jan 8, 2014 0:55:37 GMT -5
Just checked on my overlay. Yes, the Hemisfair Tower of the Americas is located just a little south of the center of Ramon de los Fuentes' suerte.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jan 8, 2014 2:29:50 GMT -5
Ray, I've placed the Ramon de los Fuentes suerte on my virtual model (click on picture) -- and given him a few days extra water from the acequia bordering his property on the northeast resulting in greener pastures. lol. The view is looking E.N.E. with Powder House Hill and the Garita at the top, the Alameda on the left and La Villita bottom left. Do you have any property information such as where the house was located if there was one and what the dimensions of the land were? My first thought is that his house would have been facing the Goliad Road along the S.W. boundary. The measurements on my model after placing the fence line to divide his land from that of Arciniega and Nunez are as follows: S.W. boundary along the Goliad Road -- 1,062 feet. N.W. boundary along the Acequia Madre de Valero -- 1,310 feet. N.E. boundary along the Acequia de Afuera (correct name?) -- 1,189 feet. S.E. boundary along adjoining Arciniega/Nunez suerte -- 1'252. These measurements are close but not perfect. While the land features are laid down over Google Earth images and based on the Rullman map, the junction of the S.E. boundary to the acequia at the northern point is eyeballed from the Rullman map. The other end, however, joins the Goliad Road at the elbow shown by Rullman that I have placed using measurements from the highly accurate Sanborn Maps. This has assured relative accuracy in placing the boundary fence. Here's an angle looking S.E. across the Jose de la Baum suerte from the Alameda.
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Post by edward on Jan 9, 2014 1:23:55 GMT -5
Ray, I've placed the Ramon de los Fuentes suerte on my virtual model (click on picture) -- and given him a few days extra water from the acequia bordering his property on the northeast resulting in greener pastures. lol. The view is looking E.N.E. with Powder House Hill and the Garita at the top, the Alameda on the left and La Villita bottom left. Do you have any property information such as where the house was located if there was one and what the dimensions of the land were? My first thought is that his house would have been facing the Goliad Road along the S.W. boundary. The measurements on my model after placing the fence line to divide his land from that of Arciniega and Nunez are as follows: S.W. boundary along the Goliad Road -- 1,062 feet. N.W. boundary along the Acequia Madre de Valero -- 1,310 feet. N.E. boundary along the Acequia de Afuera (correct name?) -- 1,189 feet. S.E. boundary along adjoining Arciniega/Nunez suerte -- 1'252. These measurements are close but not perfect. While the land features are laid down over Google Earth images and based on the Rullman map, the junction of the S.E. boundary to the acequia at the northern point is eyeballed from the Rullman map. The other end, however, joins the Goliad Road at the elbow shown by Rullman that I have placed using measurements from the highly accurate Sanborn Maps. This has assured relative accuracy in placing the boundary fence. These numbers look good (per deeds: the Goliad line (SW) is 440 vrs and the line with Miguel Arciniega (SE) is 432 vrs). The only other thing I would add is that in 1836 the suerte most likely belonged to Phillip Dimmitt. Captain Dimmitt lived in SA for a few years and died in 1841.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jan 9, 2014 12:17:03 GMT -5
Dimmit acquired it from De los Fuentes, or the other way around?
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Post by edward on Jan 9, 2014 15:07:05 GMT -5
Dimmit acquired it from De los Fuentes, or the other way around? Property first went to Jose Antonio de la Garza then to Dimmitt (to J. Beck in 1848). BTW, on the N corner there is an 'Old Stone Dam' probably an acequia gate.
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Post by rayjr on Jan 9, 2014 22:29:16 GMT -5
Rich, This is great validation of the Rullman map. Thank you very much. I know I would not be able to pull this table cloth, but it is intriguing to see the potential. I remember about 20 years ago, a guy named Clinton Manges used to conduct title searches on old property to discover flaws and use this to base claim to land in order to secure mineral rights - maybe I can still make a claim to drill for oil under the tower Not holding my breath - but having fun with the idea. A little history, Ramon was elected Alcalde in 1794, so maybe he did get a few extra days of water. He is the son of Toribio de la Fuentes Y Fernandez. Toribio was also a former Alcalde at one time (1780), the role only being secured for a year at a time. Toribio originally was stationed as a private at the Presidio de Ahumada, at Orcaquisac, near the Trinity river in 1758. He later moved to the Presidio Los Adeas until about 1772. He accompanied Anthanes de Mezieres to negotiate for peace with the Caddo indians in 1772. As you probably know, Marques de Rubi suggested closing the former "capital of Texas" at Los Adeas in 1767, not being executed until 1772/3, at which time Toribio was removed to San Antonio de Valero. Not long after Toribio is found to be in charge of the construction of the Northern Acequia (see San Antonio de Bexar by Jesus de la Teja). On the Rullman map you will see several properties held by Toribio in the Labor de Arriba. I have attached a Bexar Archive translation of one conflict Toribio had with a neighbor relative to irrigation permission. It contains some topographical detail you might find useful. Toribio had another son (Ramon's brother), named Pedro de la Fuentes Y Fernandez. You may recall my post on another thread related to the location of the "Priest's House". You will also see several properties on the Rullman map held by Pedro the parish priest. Toribio's sister married Santiago Seguin, son of Bartholome. Santiago and Guadalupe de la Fuentes begat Erasmo, who begat Juan Nepomuceno - someone you may have heard of . Your model continues to evolve in a grand fashion - it is a delight to see! I can say that using the model is very important to contextualizing local testimony and reports of historical information. The discussion regarding the burials is a perfect example, where understanding distances helps one understand the specific likelihood of historical events. The Siege of Bexar is another. On a side note, you mention that the acequias provided the drinking water, along with the possibility that there were likely low aversion to depositing bodies in the river downstream of the city - but look at Rullman and all the properties irrigating from the river downstream in the Labor de Abajo, Labor de Moches, & the Labor de Concepcion. In any case, I agree that Francisco Ruiz might have used the funeral fires to simplify things to some degree. (Francisco is also a distant relative through an old marriage). I am also going to try and send my powerpoint as a pdf - hopefully you find it interesting. Regards, Ray e_bx_003543.pdf (529.37 KB)
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Post by rayjr on Jan 9, 2014 22:39:54 GMT -5
Rich, Here is my overlay of old on new as a pdf. Sorry it is so crude - but I started with a 161Mb file - so I have had to crop the heck out of it. Regards, Ray 1837SanAntonio7.pdf (1016.38 KB)
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jan 10, 2014 1:56:33 GMT -5
BTW, on the N corner there is an 'Old Stone Dam' probably an acequia gate. Yeah? Cool. That would be one of the compuertes. Rullman shows two others: Compuerte de Reparto (delivery gate) which divides the Acequia Madre de Valero into the two canals (one to the Alamo and one to water the Labores de Abajo to the east) and the Compuerte de Baron de Bastrop directly behind the Alamo on the Madre canal which must divert water into the lateral canal crossing west to the other acequia. Rullman shows none at the point you mention, but there had to be one there for the canal that leaves the Madre ditch and circumvents the Fuentes and the Arciniega suertes. He show another one labeled Compuerte de la Concepcion a little more than half way down to the mission. I would love to know what these things looked like. I created a structure for the Compuerte de Reparto that is a bit overkill. My imagination was running wild. There is a domed structure in one of the Gentilz drawings of women doing laundry in an acequia which might be one of these, but I rather think it would just be a dam-like wall with liftable sluice gates in it.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jan 10, 2014 2:20:24 GMT -5
Rich, Here is my overlay of old on new as a pdf. Sorry it is so crude - but I started with a 161Mb file - so I have had to crop the heck out of it. Regards, Ray View AttachmentNice overlay. I'm impressed with how much does line up between the two maps. By the way, do you have the whole Rullman map or just the portion published in George Nelson's book?
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Post by edward on Jan 10, 2014 13:56:57 GMT -5
BTW, on the N corner there is an 'Old Stone Dam' probably an acequia gate. Yeah? Cool. That would be one of the compuertes. Rullman shows two others: Compuerte de Reparto (delivery gate) which divides the Acequia Madre de Valero into the two canals (one to the Alamo and one to water the Labores de Abajo to the east) and the Compuerte de Baron de Bastrop directly behind the Alamo on the Madre canal which must divert water into the lateral canal crossing west to the other acequia. Rullman shows none at the point you mention, but there had to be one there for the canal that leaves the Madre ditch and circumvents the Fuentes and the Arciniega suertes. He show another one labeled Compuerte de la Concepcion a little more than half way down to the mission. I would love to know what these things looked like. I created a structure for the Compuerte de Reparto that is a bit overkill. My imagination was running wild. There is a domed structure in one of the Gentilz drawings of women doing laundry in an acequia which might be one of these, but I rather think it would just be a dam-like wall with liftable sluice gates in it. The gates the divides the Acequia Madre de Valero into the two canals and the Compuerte de Baron de Bastrop roughly defined the west boundary of another property of Del Los Fuentes. He sold this property in 1808 to De la Garza. I wonder if the irrigation ditches that feed the field west towards the Alamo became death traps for the Alamo defenders that tried to flee and may have sought refuge in these cross ditches in a somewhat open field.
I think the dam-like wall with liftable slice gates would be the most likely. Could the background structure be a lime kiln? There were at least two as you went up the west side of SA river towards Molino Blanco?
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Post by rayjr on Jan 10, 2014 19:17:01 GMT -5
Rich, I believe there are more than one Rullman map. I found on line at the Library of Congress the version that has advertisements on it. See the jpeg attached. The version i have is a digital copy from The Briscoe Center for American History. I have a 162Mb tif file. These are the details: Identifier: di_04668 Title: "Historical Map of Old San Antonio de Bexar" Description: Large map of San Antonio of 1837 listing the names of all the county and city officials from 1837 until 1912. City: San Antonio County: Bexar State: Texas Country: United States Date: 1912 Creator: Rullman, John D. Source: Texas Map Collection Publisher: Dolph Briscoe Center for American History Rights: Dolph Briscoe Center for American History Box: Texas Map Collection Folder: San Antonio 1836 Format: Plat (map) Size: 36 in X 42 in Other ID: di_04667 I remember during the Battle of the Alamo in 1836 that someone stated that the defenders never suffered from lack of drinking water due to the routing of the acequias into the compound. But if there were gates outside the compound that basically directed this primary flow - would they have not been susceptible to control by Santa Anna's forces? Great rendition of the antique style lock. Regards, Ray
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jan 16, 2014 21:03:04 GMT -5
I remember during the Battle of the Alamo in 1836 that someone stated that the defenders never suffered from lack of drinking water due to the routing of the acequias into the compound. But if there were gates outside the compound that basically directed this primary flow - would they have not been susceptible to control by Santa Anna's forces? Great rendition of the antique style lock. Regards, Ray I believe the feeling is that Santa Anna's army did block them off northeast of the Alamo, but that the low areas east of the fort became a lake of acequia water that was only a few feet away from the Mo. Jameson planned to dig a ditch into the fort from the "lake" behind the Alamo (which he actually included in the key to his non-extant plat) but there is no evidence he ever completed this plan.
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Post by Thatcher Bennett on Oct 2, 2014 21:56:11 GMT -5
Been reading through the threads on the site and surprised nobody's asked the question of wethe or not there's possibly one (or more) of the cottonwoods from the Alameda still standing. I know from my many trips downtown (I actually usually park at the Denny's on Commerce) and there are quite a few trees down that way. Down on the river you have the Cypress from which the Mexican sniper shot Ben Milam during the Siege of Bexar, so is it possible?
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Post by Rich Curilla on Oct 3, 2014 10:24:24 GMT -5
Nope. I'm afraid not. If you walk from Denny's to St. Joseph's church its all sidewalk, buildings and street. Those trees were 60 to 70 feet high and looked nothing like a cypress or any other tree you see in the area (not on the site) today. I've only seen one in old photos that had the grandeur of those old cottonwoods. It was in the Menger courtyard in the early 20th. century and was just about as high as those in the Alameda, and I wondered if it might have been saved and transported, but gave that up the more I thought about it. There are two young cottonwoods on the Alamo grounds now. They are standing together just across the acequia from the east side of the Gift Shop Museum. They are maybe half as tall as the Alameda trees were.
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