Custer on PBS

[Kevin Young]

Jan 18, 2012 17:39:05 GMT -5 TRK said:

Jan 18, 2012 16:46:02 GMT -5 Allen Wiener said:

I was curious as to why PBS omitted Jim Donovan from the talking heads group. At least one or two seemed to bring limited knowledge, at best, to the topic.

That's like leaving Kevin Young out of an Alamo documentary

Bless you Tom. Nice to know I have one fan.

[Kevin Young]

I will agree I was underwhelmed. As a matter of fact, I DVR the thing and have made three attempts to watch it and keep falling asleep. Still have not seen the end of thing!

I was happy to see Ed Linenthal used as a talking head. Would have liked to have seem Jim D. but understand they went with one author and one book...and was it me, but in the parts I did watch before nodding off, were some of the talking heads just there to make really dramatic sound bits and really offered nothing to the discussion...

[Allen Wiener]

That was my observation, Kevin. It's all "so dramatic" and "doomsday-ish" and dark or something. I'm disappointed because American Experience used to be a quality history program that I really enjoyed. I have some of their best stuff on DVD-R. But the recent "old west" programs have been hack jobs that are barely a notch above History Channel's old "Real West" series, with some of the same repetitious talking heads, who seem to be experts on everything that ever happened west of the Mississippi (and some points east of it). Formulaic and not even very entertaining.

[Richard Weddle]

Allen, your analysis is trenchant and not unlike my own.

Jan 22, 2012 10:31:22 GMT -5 Allen Wiener said:

... We've gamed this out 100 times (and I hope we never stop), ...

You can say that again. That day has been gamed out thousands of times, and like you, I hope we never stop.

These documentaries by the American Experience should be written by historians who specialize in their field, not by broadcast journalists with no expertise in history who are simply pulling together another episode. Instead, historians who specialize in a topic are hired on as talking heads. When historians take charge of the medium, documentaries about the American west will improve.


Richard

[acbntx]

If the real truth were told Reno and Benteen would be Court Martialed for deriliction of duty. They failed to follow Custer direct orders to at a rapid advance meet him in battle, they took the liberty of interpeting the battle in order to justify their actions, had they advanced as ordered, things may of been differant, but then again, if Custer who have taken the galin guns, we all pretty much caould guess the outcome.

[Allen Wiener]

A court of inquiry was held into Reno's performance (at his own request, as I recall), but he was acquited. Custer did deserve much of the blame for such a poorly conceived plan, for showing so little understanding of the quality of his two main subordinate officers and their attitude toward him, and for trying to conduct a seat-of-the-pants attack on a village he had not seen and that was far larger than he thought it was. Nonetheless, I agree that both Reno and Benteen performed very poorly in many respects that day.

In fact, Reno was court-martialed in 1877, but not for anything he did, or failed to do, at Little Bighorn. He was charged with improper behavior toward another officer's wife and found guilty. He was sentenced to be dismissed from service, but President Rutherford B. Hayes, who had just taken office, reduced the sentence to suspension from rank and pay for two years, so Reno was able to salvage what little was left of his career.

[Allen Wiener]

On a thread about Travis's ride to the Alamo, tracesoftexas wrote:

My old history professor at UT, William Roger Louis, once in a sherry-infused moment said something like "Yes, it's important to know what we know, but it's just as important to know what they [historical actors acting in the moment] didn't know."
/blockquote]

So true. For example, Custer did not know about the attack the Sioux and Cheyenne had made on Crook at the Rosebud only a week or so before he ran into them at Little Big Horn. Custer was sure the Indians would scatter and run; his plan was based on the objective of not letting them get away. Boy, was he in for a surprise.

[loucapitano]

That's a good point about Custer. When your whole battle plan is based on preventing the enemy's escape, you're totally flummoxed when they choose to stay and fight. Thus you spread your force, rather than concentrate your force.
I've often thought that Custer's total force of 600 men could have and would have handled an attack if he knew enough about the situation to stay together. But he didn't know enough, and was chewed up piecemeal with his five companies spread over a mile and Reno/Benteen miles away.
Holy cow, where did all those gosh darn Indians come from? (Famous last words!)
HAPPY GROUNDHOG DAY!!!

[Paul Sylvain]

I'm now thinking a massed attack by 600 troopers on the camp would probably have scattered the Indians or would have led to their defeat. Instead, Custer divided and the Indians conquered. Interesting.

[Allen Wiener]

Had Custer surprised them in that way, you could be right. There was panic in the village when Reno began the attack, but the Indians scrambled pretty fast and mounted an effective counter-attack on Reno in pretty short time, especially considering they were not prepared for the attack and some Indians were immediately occupied with shielding and evacuating women and children as best they could. They also had to retrieve horses from their herd. There is some debate as to whether Reno should have plowed right into the village instead of halting and dismounting and placing himself in a defensive position, rather than the kind of agressive offense that Custer was known for. IIRC, Reno stopped because, once he saw how large the village was, he was afraid to continue his charge into it. Custer was now out of sight and had promised to support Reno, but did not show up (nor would he). There is debate over a lot of what Reno did that day, but many believe that he would have ended up trapped in the village and ultimately wiped out. Who knows? Once Custer divided his force, I think he was doomed and, if not then, he was doomed once Reno halted his attack and fell into a defensive position, no longer of any help to Custer and totally occupied with protecting his own small force. He also clearly went a bit bonkers and showed indecision and panic.

However, that doesn't necessarily counter your argument. Had Custer kept his force together and mounted an all-out, surprise attack, he might well have accomplished his goal of getting hostages quickly and forcing a surrender. Some Indians would have scattered, which had preoccupied Custer when he formed his plan, but he would have scored a victory and effectively elimnated the Sioux as a danger. Had Custer known about the pounding Crook had taken a week earlier or how aggressive the warriors were at that battle, it also would have altered his assumptions and his plans. Again, he might have decided on the kind of attack you describe, but who knows?

[loucapitano]

I've read dozens of books and articles questioning whether Reno should have continued his attack into the village. It was one hell of a large village and I doubt if even he could estimate it's size, although what he could see apparently unnerved him. The immediate actions of the Indian first line of defense (the Dog Warriors) convinced him to halt the attack and then retreat. When the Indians pressed, his retreat turned into a route.
Lately, the Military Channel has shown a Custer documentary based on the forensic archaeological investigation conducted by Richard Allen Fox, Jr. in 1983 and after of the LBH battlefield. His evidence supports the theory that Custer's troops were so strung out that none of his companies were able to mount a defense for more than a few minutes before being overwhelmed or routed toward last stand hill. I suspect this group of about 40 troopers including Custer and most of his officers appeared like a disciplined defense to the troops that arrived almost two days later. Hence, the legend of the "Custer's Last Stand."
The expression "perfect storm" has been popular lately, especially after the Clooney movie and Hurricane Sandy. I think Custer ran into one on that hot June afternoon in 1876.
Who knows, but it's fun to speculate. Hollywood has certainly enjoyed it.