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Post by stuart on Dec 16, 2007 12:35:17 GMT -5
So far as terminology goes I can do no better than quote Rene Chartrand:
"The use of the term rifles in Mexico has been the subject of much confusion through mistranslation of Spanish terms. Fusil means musket; carabina means rifle. Further confusion arose from Mexican references to American riflemen as rifleleros, a term also used for such units when they were eventually raised in Mexico. The Spanish term for a carbine is tercerola. The escopeta was a peculiar type of musket, very sturdy, that originated in Catalonia and was used as a hunting and light infantry weapon if long-barrelled, or as a cavalry carbine if short. It was especially popular with Mexican Presidial cavalry on the northern frontier."
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Post by tmdreb on Dec 16, 2007 22:38:11 GMT -5
The only real problem I have with that set of definitions is that while the proper definition for escopeta may be that specific, it had a much broader usage.
I know it can hardly be termed research, but I put escopeta into a Google Book search, and looked at some results from 1794 to about the 1860's. Several sources were English-Spanish dictionaries, while others were simply literature from the period. The definitions and usage for escopeta are sometimes as unspecific as "gun". Most often, it seems to describe a short-barreled smoothbore weapon, usually of old or obsolete design (miquelet lock?).
Of course, I was primarily looking at English sources, as my Spanish is rather limited. I would not be surprised if the meaning of the term was largely determined by the background of the author.
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Post by stuart on Dec 17, 2007 1:19:04 GMT -5
I think the problem is exactly that. The real definition is as given by Rene, who generally knows what he's talking about, but on the American side it may have been used much more loosely to mean pretty well any old and or short barrelled weapon - rather as to my father's generation any German machine-gun was a Spandau.
That being said Miquelet type locks were certainly characteristic of Escopetas and may in a general sense have rightly or wrongly been the defining feature in American eyes, ie; if its got a Miquelet lock it must be an Escopeta
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Post by TRK on Dec 17, 2007 10:24:23 GMT -5
The escopeta was a peculiar type of musket, very sturdy, that originated in Catalonia and was used as a hunting and light infantry weapon if long-barrelled, or as a cavalry carbine if short. Of course, "long" and "short" are relative, imprecise terms, but Carl P. Russell's book, Guns on the Early Frontiers (University of California Press, 1962), p. 32, has line drawings of two escopetas that I'd term on the long side compared with other examples I've seen. The drawings were based on photos of two escopetas that at the time were in the collections of the Historical Society of New Mexico. They had the miquelet locks and clunky stocks, but no flare to the muzzles. On the other end of the long/short scale, I have a photo of a purported "escopeta" that looks like nothing more than an early 19th-century musket that's been considerably sawed off, but with a full stock that looks like it was made to fit the piece, rather than a hack job. I need to revisit this image before further discussing it. I agree with Scott that what constituted an "escopeta" was probably often in the eye of the beholder. Definitely, the term was sometimes used to connote a "gun." In Spanish- and Mexican-published dictionaries throughout the 19th century, the definitions of escopeta were often vague. For example, from Diccionario de la Lengua Castellana (1825): "Escopeta. Fire arm with an iron barrel, wooden stock, with a lock for firing and a ramrod for charging." Some escopetas evidently had bell muzzles, and there was some overlap with the term trabuco, which Spanish dictionaries of 1823 and 1842 defined as (translated:) "blunderbuss, or a short escopeta that fires many balls at once." George F. Ruxton, during his travels in Mexico during the Mexican War, made separate references both to a trabuco, and an "old rusty bell-mouthed escopeta." It's also worth knowing that escopeta remains in modern Spanish usage, meaning simply a shotgun.
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Post by TRK on Dec 17, 2007 14:31:02 GMT -5
Here's a link to a webpage on an escopeta manufactured in 1823 by Aramburu, a maker in Eibar, in the Basque country in Spain, a town that specialized in armaments manufacturing. Note that the piece is missing its hammer: www.armia-eibar.net/armas/arma_larga/EA007Click on the photos for an enlargement. And, if interested, click on the "armas largas" link on the left of the page, and you can view many 19th-century weapons in the collections of Museo de la Industria Armera in Eibar, including a number of flintlock escopetas of different types and barrel lengths.
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Post by dimbo33 on Dec 18, 2007 20:53:37 GMT -5
After reading all your great replies I found my interest even more perked. I went back and looked at several Mexican sources and I am convinced that "fusil" is a musket and "rifle" is a rifle in the Alamo period. I am moderately comfortable that at that time "carabina" was a shortened musket. (I disagree with Rene that "carabina" was a rifle, as the Mexican writings clearly list "rifles" in multilple places.
I think that Stuarts list of items shipped from England to Mexico supports this as there are carbines and rifles and muskets all listed separtely.
I went back to the earliest "Plana Mayor" that I have for the Mexican army. It is 1846. At that time the artillery arms listed in the inventory were: fusiles ingleses (English muskets) [100 new,3311usable and 6054 unusable]; fusiles de diferente fabrica (Muskets of other manufacture?); rifles (rifles)[39 usable and 8 unusable]; carabinas de 16 adarmes (carbines that shot a 16 adarme ball--1 adarme=1/16 ounce); carbinas de 12 adarme; tercerolas( these are listed differntly than carbines); pistolas and esmeriles)(Emery? a small piece of ordinace)[only five of these listed]
The cavalry inventory listed carabinas [8027]; pares de pistolas (pairs of pistols) [1741]; porta tercerlas (tercerloa slings?--but it does not list tercerolas) This makes it seem as if Carabinas and tercerola are the same.
The infantry inventory lists fusiles and tercerolas but no mention of rifles or carbines
Remember these are from 1846 but I would think they would be similar to 1836. I find it very interesting that there is no mention of escopetas. I would also say that I can not remember off the top of my head seeing escopeta in any of the original documents (in Spanish) of that time. Be very careful in accepting translations--I have often seen fusil translated as a rifle, howitzer (obus) as a mortar etc.
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Post by tmdreb on Dec 18, 2007 21:14:04 GMT -5
The cavalry inventory listed carabinas [8027]; pares de pistolas (pairs of pistols) [1741]; porta tercerlas (tercerloa slings?--but it does not list tercerolas) This makes it seem as if Carabinas and tercerola are the same. The infantry inventory lists fusiles and tercerolas but no mention of rifles or carbines. I don't mean to be an idiot, but what's the difference between a carbine and a tercerola? Is the latter a shortened musket?
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Post by dimbo33 on Dec 18, 2007 21:25:33 GMT -5
After almost ten years of translating many orginal Mexican army documents from the original Spanish I am still trying to figure this all out. It seems as though the more I find the less I know. I am tempted to think that Tercerola and Carabina can be used interchangably but the plana mayor, in the artillery, they are listed separately. Gregg
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Post by stuart on Dec 22, 2007 3:59:24 GMT -5
Just by the by, you'll note on the Morales thread that Jake Ivey's team found a lot of finials from socket bayonet scabbards in the area where Morales was operating - and while the significance is being argued over it does indicated that a substantial number of his cazadores were armed with India Pattern muskets rather than the Baker Rifles of legend.
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