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Post by Allen Wiener on May 11, 2011 8:07:44 GMT -5
Well, I finally got around to watching the History Channel's "Custer's Last Man" and found Mr. Finkle's story totally not credible. Did anyone else see this?
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Post by Chuck T on May 11, 2011 10:17:35 GMT -5
Allen: Yes I did. I agree. In fact there were two stories in conflict with one another. Doug Ellison (of the Hall version) is on my other board and he intends to post the 1921 newspaper article, he bases his work on. Will let you know.
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Post by Allen Wiener on May 11, 2011 10:39:37 GMT -5
Thanks, Chuck. I was glad to see Donovan as a talking head, but I noticed that he related nothing about the Finkel story except at the end, when he said there were too many holes in it to be credible, which sounds right to me. I also thought the descriptions of the battle were superficial and seeing a ranger in close-up, rather than the terrain he is pointing at, wasn't very helpful.
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Post by Chuck T on May 11, 2011 13:24:16 GMT -5
This thing made Ice Road Truckers look like Gone With The Wind---------------Chuck
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Post by Allen Wiener on May 11, 2011 14:20:00 GMT -5
You're right!
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Post by loucapitano on May 11, 2011 15:38:00 GMT -5
I saw it a few days later on DVR. It's a good thing, because I could fast forward through the endless commercials. I didn't see much credibility in the story.
Perhaps it was possible for a trooper to escape in the minutes before Company C retreated from Findley Hill to the South end of Custer Ridge. He would be skidaddling just prior to Company L's defense of Calhoun Hill and just befor Crazy Horse and White Bull arrived to attack from the East. In simple terms, he would be retracing the approach the battalian took to the Little Big Horn. ("Please Mr. Custer, I Don't Wanna Go.")
Plausible, possible, true...who knows? Some maps or visuals would have helped make the case. But the show's producer seemed more concerned with making a the sensational claim, rather than technical accuracy. At best, it was 15 minutes of story, stretched to fill 2 hours. It was tabloid TV, which unfortunately is becoming more common on these History/Geography channels. I wish these show were more like "You are There" from the 1950s.
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Post by Chuck T on May 11, 2011 17:46:08 GMT -5
Lou: I think the more likely place for such an "escape" to happen is on Nye-Cartright Ridge.
I have a friend in Ireland who theorizes that from that point on it was a running gun battle, with little pause or respite. He speculates that it was not a reconniassance or attack or rounding up the women and little kiddies that motivated Custer, but rather trying to get out of Dodge that drove them north. In other words a complete route writ large.
At first I dismissed this as the ramblings and ravings of another Custer hater, of which there are many. Now I am not so sure. Dr Fox has done a good job with the forensics of the battle. What he does not put in any context is in what sequence these events happened. We, in our time have assumed there must have been an orderly progression. Attack followed by counterattack etc. What if all of these things had happened at or near the same time. Indian accounts are conflicting, and I must admit I dismiss many of them I do not do this because they are Indian accounts. Rather, it is because they, like any other soldier on any other battlefield, have only a foxhole view and not the big picture. The jury is still out for me on this.
What I do find highly possible is that one, or perhaps more could have escaped. I just don't buy the Hall/Finkel story as presented on National Enquirer TV. I will wait until I see Doug Ellison's post of the Frank Finkel newspaper story on the other site to say anymore about this. The one statement that sticks in my mind is Finkel's - The battle had just begun. What meaning can we either imply or pin down firmly with this statement?
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Post by Bill Yowell on May 11, 2011 18:28:00 GMT -5
Lou, your reference to "Please Mr. Custer" momentarily took me back to my youth. By chance to you remember who did the recording. I don't remember all the words, but I can still whistle the tune. In reference to the TV episode, tabloid tv is a good fit.
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Post by Allen Wiener on May 11, 2011 20:40:16 GMT -5
Lou, your reference to "Please Mr. Custer" momentarily took me back to my youth. By chance to you remember who did the recording. I don't remember all the words, but I can still whistle the tune. In reference to the TV episode, tabloid tv is a good fit. Larry Verne: www.themadmusicarchive.com/song_details.aspx?SongID=378
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Post by Paul Sylvain on May 11, 2011 23:41:19 GMT -5
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Post by alamonorth on May 12, 2011 9:26:43 GMT -5
The Finkle account is the subject of John Koster's 2010 book Custer Survivor- The End of a Myth, the beginning of a Legend.
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Post by loucapitano on May 12, 2011 15:12:08 GMT -5
Thanks Chuck...the map I used didn't identify the Nye-Cartright Ridge, which is further South than Calhoun Hill. Then again, if there was a survivor, he may have simply followed the route of the courier Private Martini and turned East before reaching Reno Hill. But I don't want to give credit to a very flimsy speculation. Over the years, I've gone back and forth at to whether the entire battle was a route from the beginning. But I keep thinking of the sound of sustained volly fire that Reno's troops heard that afternoon. It indicates some type of military discipline was present for at least some of the battle. On the other hand, the routing of individual companies is very likely, especially as Indians got around behind the troops to attack the horse holders. I tend to agree with the accounts that indicate companies C, L and K were most likely overrun and the survivors raced to Last Stand Hill. However, all of this took some time. The Indians engaging Reno had to cross several miles to reach the Custer battlefield. Crazy Horse had to circle the entire battlefield to attack from the East. Plus, the Indians did not know if other soldiers were lurking to their North and East, so they may have been tentative in attacking due to their concern about defending their Village. Finally, as much as Hollywood likes to show Indians on horseback either charging directly or circling around while being picked off, most accounts say the Indians often left their horses behind in the numerous ravines and approached their enemy stealthily through the grass and bushes. They fired arrows in the air to pin down soldiers and advanced while they reloaded their single shot carbines. All of this took time. But not much. One Indian claimed later, "There was not even enough time to smoke a pipe." Was it a pitched battle, a complete route or both, we may never know?
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jerry
Full Member
Posts: 60
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Post by jerry on May 12, 2011 16:43:14 GMT -5
I have read much on Frank Finkel, and after watching "Custer's Last Man" on the History Channel, my opinion of the man's tale has not changed - he told a whopper. For an excellent analysis of Finkel and his story, read "The Frank Finkel Hoax: No Survivor of Custer's Last Stand" by Custer historian Michael Nunnally.
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Post by Chuck T on May 12, 2011 17:28:54 GMT -5
Lou: C, I, and L were quite spread out. Most now think that CH attacked up Deep Ravine spliting the Keogh Battalion from Yates Battalion and Custer, then swung around behind Keogh on the east side of Battle Ridge. This changes things considerably if true about time lines cutting a couple of miles off CH's route to the Custer portion of the fight. I am also starting to doubt the MTC Ford recon/attack. I must carefully look at the Thompson narrative to see if any of his testimony (which is highly suspect in some quarters) can be interpreted any different than most do. Allen was there last year, and I think he wished to do some investigation in this area, but its all private property and he was unable to do so.
I have another friend that is intending to ride the Deep Ravine CH route next month, and look at those possabilities.
You are quite correct about a lot of the hostiles fighting on foot. Probably more than half. It is quite likely many on them came on foot from this village, particularly the late arrivals that did not participate in the fight with Reno in the valley. Don't know if you have ever been to the battlefield, but the terrain is tailor made for infiltration tactics and rudimentry level battle drill (fire and movement).
Why Custer tried to fight on that ridge is beyond me. No sound tactician would pick that ground. Nye-Cartright is a much more compact piece of terrain for all around perimeter defense, or even smaller individual perimeters that are mutually supporting. The Cemetary Ridge position (on the backside of the cemetary all the way to the bluff above the river) is much better also. In fact it is the best piece of defensive terrain in the battlespace. All this is begining to lead me to the conclusion that this ground was picked for him by hostile action.
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Post by mjbrathwaite on May 12, 2011 20:07:49 GMT -5
Lou, your reference to "Please Mr. Custer" momentarily took me back to my youth. By chance to you remember who did the recording. I don't remember all the words, but I can still whistle the tune. In England, it was covered by Charlie Drake.
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