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Post by Tom Nuckols on Nov 16, 2010 20:55:27 GMT -5
I think Juan has become the "poster child" for disfranchised Tejanos who found themselves "strangers" in their own land following Texas independence...Certainly he has become that in recent years... Juan outlived most of his Texas Rev/Republic/Mexican War associates...The US History book our local students use has a lot more on Seguin in the Alamo/Texas Rev section than it does about William Travis. Again, that he outlived his rebel comrades seems to have been Seguin's greatest sin. There's no doubt he's been elevated in recent years. Witness his treatment in Hancock's "The Alamo" versus Wayne's. But then again, the Immortal 3 were the poster boys for over 150 years. Why begrudge flawed Seguin for getting as much--or even a smidge more--poster space than one of the flawed Immortal 3 within recent years? That's just history making up for a 150 year gap in the record. Folks always complain when a newspaper makes a mistake and then buries the correction at the bottom of page 9 a week later. Texas history's recent attention to Seguin is like a newspaper correcting its mistake on the front page instead of the bottom of page 9.
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Post by Seguin on Nov 16, 2010 22:03:15 GMT -5
Seguin certainly did more for the Texas Revolution than Crockett ever did. He was also less flawed than say, Bowie, who used to be a land swindler, or Travis, who was a deadbeat and a womanizer.
It´s good to see Seguin finally getting some recognition too. Although he did´nt die as a martyr like the Immortal Three, he was still a major figure in the Texas Revolution, and an Alamo defender, who put his life on the line at several occasions.
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Post by sloanrodgers on Nov 16, 2010 22:48:54 GMT -5
TRK convienced me sometime ago that Oury needs to be removed from reference that has him in Texas service... I remember we were discussing William S. Oury some place on here, but can't remember where. I recall a few years ago that whenever I would research Oury's supposed ranger and Indian fighting adventures I would run into a huge void of almost no contemporary documentation other than the appearance of his name on Jack Hays and other captain's muster rolls. I believe Oury was rough n' ready, but think he was preoccupied with making a living for a few years, not riding off to wage war. This Seguin thread sounds like it's getting a little heated on the conflicting perceptions of him, so maybe I'll start a Bill Oury thread. Tell me who Juan the Seguin discussion.
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Post by Kevin Young on Nov 16, 2010 23:43:16 GMT -5
I think Juan has become the "poster child" for disfranchised Tejanos who found themselves "strangers" in their own land following Texas independence...Certainly he has become that in recent years... Juan outlived most of his Texas Rev/Republic/Mexican War associates...The US History book our local students use has a lot more on Seguin in the Alamo/Texas Rev section than it does about William Travis. Again, that he outlived his rebel comrades seems to have been Seguin's greatest sin. There's no doubt he's been elevated in recent years. Witness his treatment in Hancock's "The Alamo" versus Wayne's. But then again, the Immortal 3 were the poster boys for over 150 years. Why begrudge flawed Seguin for getting as much--or even a smidge more--poster space than one of the flawed Immortal 3 within recent years? That's just history making up for a 150 year gap in the record. Folks always complain when a newspaper makes a mistake and then buries the correction at the bottom of page 9 a week later. Texas history's recent attention to Seguin is like a newspaper correcting its mistake on the front page instead of the bottom of page 9. Not begruding Juan at all for any of the attention he has gotten in the last few years...merely making a few observations on how Juan has certainly found his place back in Texas history and is the example most often held up to show Tejano support for the Texas Revolution and the treatment many of those folks recieved after independence-
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Post by Seguin on Nov 17, 2010 0:10:03 GMT -5
It seems to me most people here pretty much agrees Seguin deserves his place in Texas history as a true Texan hero.
Who Juan the Seguin discussion? Seguin, of course! ;D
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Post by Tom Nuckols on Nov 17, 2010 0:57:53 GMT -5
It seems to me most people here pretty much agrees Seguin deserves his place in Texas history as a true Texan hero. Who Juan the Seguin discussion? Seguin, of course! ;D Well, by making it a "Juan or lose" issue, you make it a "black or white" issue. The whole point is that precious little is black and white about the Alamo other than the fact that a bunch of guys suffered for two weeks in the cold and the dirt expecting help to come. They stuck it out knowing that either their allies would come or they'd have to die in those ditches. Help never came, so most of them did. It's a gutsier thing than I'll ever do, so I admire them for it, despite their flaws and regardless of whether their mission kept them in the fort on the last day or took them elsewhere.
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Post by stuart on Nov 17, 2010 1:46:10 GMT -5
Not begruding Juan at all for any of the attention he has gotten in the last few years...merely making a few observations on how Juan has certainly found his place back in Texas history and is the example most often held up to show Tejano support for the Texas Revolution and the treatment many of those folks recieved after independence- Again is this new found attention political and a reflection of the growing importance of the Hispanic population in the USA?
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Post by TRK on Nov 17, 2010 8:17:14 GMT -5
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Post by Allen Wiener on Nov 17, 2010 9:07:01 GMT -5
Tell me who Juan the Seguin discussion. GROAN!!!! Good one, RR; a classic groaner. ;D
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Post by Allen Wiener on Nov 17, 2010 9:16:38 GMT -5
Again is this new found attention political and a reflection of the growing importance of the Hispanic population in the USA? Doubtless. Getting to the bottom of this involves the very long story of how school textbooks are written and who purchases most of them (Texas and California), which often determines what goes in the textbook. The best work on critiquing these books is (again) by James Loewen and I (again) encourage people to read him. Regarding this discussion, I wonder how different our impressions would be of virtually any military outfit in any place and at any time in history, if we were to start dissecting every member of the unit. The Alamo garrison gets more of this kind of microscopic attention because the event has achieved Olympian dimensions and its major figures have been elevated to near-deities; at least the Anglos have. Tejano fighters were given relatively short shrift for ages, including Seguin, but have now, deservedly, received increased attention. As with Crockett, et al, that includes many more things about the guy than his service in the Texas War for Independence. As has been noted, above, nothing is ever clearly black and white in history; if it was that simple, why would we spend so much time on it?? It's getting into those details, into people's heads who lived hundreds of years ago, and into what really drove the events we find significant.
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Post by Kevin Young on Nov 17, 2010 9:18:50 GMT -5
Not much to discuss-think that you were on track-he was not there...
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Post by Kevin Young on Nov 17, 2010 9:42:05 GMT -5
Again is this new found attention political and a reflection of the growing importance of the Hispanic population in the USA? Doubtless. Getting to the bottom of this involves the very long story of how school textbooks are written and who purchases most of them (Texas and California), which often determines what goes in the textbook. The best work on critiquing these books is (again) by James Loewen and I (again) encourage people to read him. Regarding this discussion, I wonder how different our impressions would be of virtually any military outfit in any place and at any time in history, if we were to start dissecting every member of the unit. The Alamo garrison gets more of this kind of microscopic attention because the event has achieved Olympian dimensions and its major figures have been elevated to near-deities; at least the Anglos have. Tejano fighters were given relatively short shrift for ages, including Seguin, but have now, deservedly, received increased attention. As with Crockett, et al, that includes many more things about the guy than his service in the Texas War for Independence. As has been noted, above, nothing is ever clearly black and white in history; if it was that simple, why would we spend so much time on it?? It's getting into those details, into people's heads who lived hundreds of years ago, and into what really drove the events we find significant. As I have always said, if the Alamo defenders were all perfect men or the demi-gods that some have made them then what they did for 13 days would not be so impressive: I would expect people of such Olympian caliber to do those epically heroic things. But these were not perfect demi-gods, but rather regular folks, with problems, issues, checker pasts, and the like who did not come of the Holy Mountain but rather from the blacksmith shops, the farm fields, the small towns, big cities, and in some cases, off of the warf, ended up in the Alamo and collectively did one hell of a thing. Yes-the Tejano role was overshadowed by the rest, but that has changed (Frank Thompson would argue that there has been a Hispanic representation in most Alamo films since the 1950's which has grown stronger and more defined since then, with Juan Seguin's role becoming stronger). I don't like to get into the "this guy did more for Texas" discussion because collectively, they gave their lives for Texas independence, and the couriers did increditable service as well. Of course, I have no real "favorite" Alamo guy (in my youth used to like Travis--that has changed--appreciate Crockett for the sum of his life--but at my age I am starting to lean toward Gordon C. Jennings). There is a lot to the Juan Seguin story I would like to see flushed out..perhaps more documentation will be covered to help explain those years he served in the Mexican Army... Stuart-I know Hispanics that think the Tejanos who fought on the independence side are the real heroes of the revolution while I know that many consider them traitors to thier people (Please not that is not my opinion but I am addressing view points from other folks). The role of interpretation of Hispanics in the Texas Independence Story in light of current political and social issues, and the rise in Hispanic political power would be an interesting study. Then again, being one familar with the Goliad/Victoria area, a look at those Tejanos who served in the Centralist cause would also be of interest...Carlos de la Garza certainly does not get the press Juan Seguin does... Now, Juan is a well remembered Texas hero...honored grave, big statue, remembered side by side with the rest of the Alamo big three. And with that, as Juan would say, "Adios."
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Post by Herb on Nov 17, 2010 11:04:10 GMT -5
As I have always said, if the Alamo defenders were all perfect men or the demi-gods that some have made them then what they did for 13 days would not be so impressive: I would expect people of such Olympian caliber to do those epically heroic things. But these were not perfect demi-gods, but rather regular folks, with problems, issues, checker pasts, and the like who did not come of the Holy Mountain but rather from the blacksmith shops, the farm fields, the small towns, big cities, and in some cases, off of the warf, ended up in the Alamo and collectively did one hell of a thing. Kevin, I couldn't agree more. To me the story is only compelling because it is the story of everyman who has ever volunteered to serve. The Myth tellers that make every defender 6' 5" a skilled frontier fighter, half horse/half alligator and every Mexican a totally inept lazy peon lacking all military skill, don't realize how seriously they are destroying what makes the Alamo truly memorable. I can't help it, but everytime I get on this subject, I think of a soldier that died in Bosnia. Quite honestly, he wasn't that great of a soldier, average at best, but that in itself is what makes him extraordinary. It was the choices he made that seperated him from the rest of the people his age, not extraordinary physical talents or skill - but the willingness to go where others would not.
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Post by Chuck T on Nov 17, 2010 11:23:36 GMT -5
Wolfpack and Kevin: I wish I had the same way with words that you two do. Perhaps it is advancing age, but as I grow older I have come to dislike the terms heros and martyrs more and more. Yesterday we heard a young man who had just been awarded the nation's highest honor proclaim that he was just doing his job. He, and all like him, follow the old dictum from Biblical times - There is need. Send me.
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Post by Kevin Young on Nov 17, 2010 12:42:04 GMT -5
Wolfpack and Kevin: I wish I had the same way with words that you two do. Perhaps it is advancing age, but as I grow older I have come to dislike the terms heros and martyrs more and more. Yesterday we heard a young man who had just been awarded the nation's highest honor proclaim that he was just doing his job. He, and all like him, follow the old dictum from Biblical times - There is need. Send me. When I was working at Presidio La Bahia. we had an English gentleman who had come to look at cattle ranches and came by the Presidio. Real nice guy, asked a lot of questions, very soft spoken. Trying for the life of men to remember his name. Anyway, in correspondence with an British military history friend, mention the visitor and got back a resoonse-"did he talk about the action he was awarded the VC for?" Never said a word about any military service! Our local trooper who was awarded the Medal of Honor (and was the first in the county to recieve one) did so because Custer, at Sailor's Creek, told the men under him that any of them who brough back a Confederate flag would get a furlough and be recommended for the Medal of Honor. And so off he went-got one of the Stonewall Brigade's colors, got his leave and the MOH. But enough of all that, since it is not about old Juan.
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