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Post by stuart on May 5, 2007 9:20:47 GMT -5
I’d like to propose that as this board was set up as a forum for Alamo studies that we might take on a project to usefully focus some of our energy and expertise. On the other site we did from time to time look at the Alamo garrison, its initial composition and its evolution. I know that there was some private discussion (now lost) on the question of numbers which could be resurrected on an open forum now we’ve lost the rowdy lot, and I also think that in parallel we also have sufficient interest and ability between us to take a serious look at defender identification. To that end I’ve posted a link to Amelia Williams work and attach below an intriguing document which really does have to form the starting point for any discussion:
"RETURN, made by Col. J.C. Neil, of the men remaining in the garrison of Bexar when he left." [Feb 14, 1836] Neil, J.C. (Lt. Col.) Field and Staff, Garrison of Bexar [Feb 14, 1836] [A3; T1 p40-42] Jamison, J.B. (Maj.) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Anderson, A. (Q.M. Sgt) Baugh, J. (Adjt) Blair, S.C. (Asst) Evans, George (Mast Ord) Fetch (Fitch), J. (Art Insr) Floddens (Floeder), _____ (Capt) Hart, W.H.W. (Asst Surg) Jamison, J.B. (Maj) Lance, Charles (Asst) Melton, E. (Q.M.) Neil, J.C. (Lt Col) Nolan, James Pagans, George Peacock, _____ (Capt) Pollard, Amos (Asst Surg) Ward, T.W. (Capt) Williams, H.J. (Sgt Maj)
Carey, W.R. Artillery, Garrison of Bexar [Feb 14, 1836] [A3; T1 p41] Atkinson, M.B. Balentine, J. Bartlett, J. Boatwright, S.(L.) Bowe, D. Byrnes, J. Cain, John Carey, W.R. (Capt) Cockran, R. Connell, S.C. Conrad, P. Cunningham, R.W. Damon, S. Dust, S.(L.) Edwards, Wm. Ewing, J.S.(L.) Fry, B.F. (2 Lt) Grymes, C. Haskill, C. Heallie, J.W. (3 Sgt) Herser, Wm. (Sgt) Holland, T. Howard, W. Ingram, I.(J.) Jackson, F.W. (1 Lt) Jennings, C.J. (P.W.) (1 Cpl) Johnston, H. Johnston, S. Kinney, J. Lewis, J. Lightfoot, Wm. (3 Cpl) Lindley, P. Lurdoff, Wm. Malerie (Maleree), W.T. McGregor, J. (2 Sgt) Mitchell, A.B. Naraw (Naran), G. Northcross, J. Perry, R. Preehouse, J. Preehouse, P. Robertson, J. (4 Sgt) Russell, R.W. Rutherford, J. Ryan, T. Shudd, J. Smith, C.S. Smith, William Taylor, F. Tomlinson, G. Tommel (Tommell), R. Walker, J. Walters, Thomas Warnull, J. Wolf, A. Wyatt, G.
Blazeley, Wm Infantry, Garrison of Bexar [Feb 14, 1836] [A3; T1 p41-42] Fassitt (Feassitt), G.A. (Capt.) Ward, T.W. (Capt. Artillery) Peacock, _____ (Capt. Artillery) Floddens (Floeder), _____ (Capt. Artillery)
Andross, Mills D. Bell, William Blazeley, Wm. (Capt) Crassen (Crasseer), Robt Davis, David Day, H.K.(R.) Dennison, Stephen Devault, A. Dockon, James (Sgt) Edwards, S.W. Erwin, Wm. A. (Sgt) Fassitt (Feassitt), G.A. (Capt) Garrand, J.W. Goodrich, T.C. Gorbit (Gorbet), Chester Harris, T. Haze (Hage), W. Hendrick, Thos. Hobbs, Jona. T. Holloway, Saml. Howell, Wm. Jones, John (1 Lt) Lynn, Wm. Main, S.W. Marshall, Wm. McGee, James Mitchell, _____ Moore, R.B. Moran, John Musselman (Mussellman), B.F. (Sgt) Nelson, H.J. Parks, Wm. Pickering, John Ryan, Isaac Sewell, S. Spratt, Wm. Starr, Richard Summerlin, A.S. Thomas, Wm. Walker, W. Washington, G. White, Robt. (Lt)
Its been argued that this list actually dates from some time in December 1835, and it is true that at least one of the men on Blazeby’s list; Stephen Dennison, was actually with Grant, and left Bexar with him on January 1 1836. However there are also a considerable number of others who marched with Grant and who are conspicuous by their absence. William Langenheim for instance served at the siege of Bexar, stayed on afterwards, enlisted under Grant and went south with him at the beginning of January, yet he’s not on the list. So does it pre-date or post-date the Alamo voting list reproduced in TRL’s “Alamo Traces”?
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Post by TRK on May 5, 2007 12:26:42 GMT -5
To get the ball rolling, I've taken the Neill list and am checking off names that appear on the Feb. 1, 1836, "Alamo voting list." I should have the results ready to post here later today, or tomorrow.
Off the bat, the names of Travis, Bowie, Crockett, and Dickinson are conspicuous for their absence from the Neill list.
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Post by stuart on May 5, 2007 13:31:46 GMT -5
A couple of intriguing thoughts occur to me on this one; In his earlier letters to the Council Neill had been stressing how he and his men had held on to Bexar through the winter without pay or supplies. Was this a list of those who had earned that back-pay rather than a straightforward accounting of who was there on the day he left? Were they “regulars” in the service of Texas as distinct from Volunteers? Secondly, what exactly was the status (a) of Travis and his men, and (b) Bowie and the men he brought with him from Goliad? Were they considered by Neill to be part of the garrison or just passing through? Remember that Travis (and Crockett) originally wanted to go to the Rio Grande before being diverted to Bexar, while Bowie was originally sent to Bexar to evacuate the place.
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Post by TRK on May 5, 2007 14:46:27 GMT -5
FWIW, I took the list Stuart posted and inserted * symbols if that name (or a close facsmile) appeared in the Alamo voting list of Feb. 1, 1836 (published in Lindley, Alamo Traces, 319-322), and a > symbol if the name appears in Amelia Williams' Alamo roster. There are also some comments by me within brackets.
If nothing else, I guess this exercise will show how some persons were present for the Feb. 1 election and not for the circa-Feb. 14 Neill muster roll...or present for the Neill muster roll and not present on Amelia Williams' listing. (And I'm one of those persons who tips his hat to Ms. Williams for her work in compiling the list and writing her thesis on the Alamo, but doubts that her list of the Alamo dead is anything like the final word on the subject.)
Feel free to critique or add to what I have added to the list; there are bound to be mistakes or omissions in my insertions. Understand that whoever originally transcribed both the Neill muster roll and the Alamo voting list may have mistaken certain handwritten letters for others (a capital S sometimes being confused for J, T for F, etc.), so some of the names as transcribed may be off base.
[Neill list, supposedly as of Feb. 14, 1836]\
* = on Alamo voting list of Feb. 1, 1836 (*? means possible match)
> = listed in Amelia Williams’ list of the Alamo defenders
[ ] = trk’s comments
* Anderson, A. (Q.M. Sgt) * > Baugh, J. (Adjt) *? > Blair, S.C. (Asst) [voting list Jno. Blair?] * Evans, George (Mast Ord) [Note: Williams lists Robert Evans as master of ordnance] * Fetch (Fitch), J. (Art Insr) Floddens (Floeder), _____ (Capt) Hart, W.H.W. (Asst Surg) > Jamison, J.B. (Maj) [Green B. Jameson] Lance, Charles (Asst) * > Melton, E. (Q.M.) * Neil, J.C. (Lt Col) [did not die at Alamo] > Nolan, James [Williams’ James Nowlan] * > Pagans, George [Alamo voting list = Geo. M. f*gam; Williams = Pagan] Peacock, _____ (Capt) > Pollard, Amos (Asst Surg) Ward, T.W. (Capt) > Williams, H.J. (Sgt Maj) [Prob. Amelia Williams’ Hiram J. Williamson]
* Atkinson, M.B. * > Balentine, J. [voting list = James J. Valentine; Amelia Williams = John J. Ballentine] Bartlett, J. * Boatwright, S.(L.) [voting list: L. Bateright] >? Bowe, D. [Daniel Bourne?] Byrnes, J. [Possibly > Samuel E. Burns, “S” mistaken for “J”?] > Cain, John * > Carey, W.R. (Capt) > Cockran, R. [Williams = Cochran(e), Robert] Connell, S.C. Conrad, P. * > Cunningham, R.W. [voting list = R. M.] > Damon, S. > Dust, S.(L.) [prob. Jacob C. Darst/Durst/Dust] Edwards, Wm. > Ewing, J.S.(L.) Fry, B.F. (2 Lt) > Grymes, C. [prob. Albert (Alfred?) Calvin Grimes] > Haskill, C. Heallie, J.W. (3 Sgt) *? > Herser, Wm. (Sgt) [voting list = Wm. Hersy?] * > Holland, T[apley]. Howard, W. * > Ingram, I.(J.) [James Ingraham according to voting list; Williams lists ___ Ingram as a “possible” Alamo death] *? >? Jackson, F.W. (1 Lt) [Voting list: J. Jackson; Williams lists Thomas Jackson; T mistaken for F?] Jennings, C.J. (P.W.) (1 Cpl) * Johnston, H. [Johnston on voting list] *? Johnston, S. [Voting list, Lewis Johnson (“L” mistaken for “S”?)] >? Kinney, J. [Amelia Williams’ James Kenney?] * Lewis, J. [James Lewis on voting list] * > Lightfoot, Wm. (3 Cpl) *? >? Lindley, P. [Alamo list = Jonathan Lindley] Lurdoff, Wm. *? Malerie (Maleree), W.T. [voting list Wm. T. Malon and Williams’ William T. Malone?] * > McGregor, J. (2 Sgt) Mitchell, A.B. Naraw (Naran), G. [Gerald Navin?] > Northcross, J. * > Perry, R. Preehouse, J. * Preehouse, P. [P. Pevyhouse on voting list] > Robertson, J. (4 Sgt) * Russell, R.W. [R.M. Russell on voting list] * > Rutherford, J. * Ryan, T. [Isaac Ryan?] Shudd, J. > Smith, C.S. x > Smith, William Taylor, F. [Amelia Williams’ George or James Taylor?] > Tomlinson, G. [Tumlinson] >? Tommel (Tommell), R. [Burke Trammel?] > Walker, J. [Jacob Walker?] Walters, Thomas >? Warnull, J. [probably Henry Warnell] * > Wolf, A. *? Wyatt, G. [Alamo voting list = C. C. Wyatt]
Ward, T.W. (Capt. Artillery) [Michael W. Ward?] Peacock, _____ (Capt. Artillery) Floddens (Floeder), _____ (Capt. Artillery)
> Andross, Mills D. [Miles DeForest Andross] * Bell, William * > Blazeley, Wm. (Capt) Crassen (Crasseer), Robt Davis, David >?Day, H.K.(R.) [same as Freeman H. R. Day?] > Dennison, Stephen > Devault, A. Dockon, James (Sgt) Edwards, S.W. Erwin, Wm. A. (Sgt) Fassitt (Feassitt), G.A. (Capt) * > Garrand, J.W. > Goodrich, T.C. [prob. John Calvin Goodrich] Gorbit (Gorbet), Chester *? >? Harris, T. [J. Harris on voting list; Williams’ John Harris?] Haze (Hage), W. Hendrick, Thos. Hobbs, Jona. T. * > Holloway, Saml. > Howell, Wm. > Jones, John (1 Lt) * > Lynn, Wm. [Linn] * Main, S.W. [Alamo voting list = G. W. Maine; Williams = George Washington Main] * > Marshall, Wm. * > McGee, James *? >? Mitchell, _____ [voting list has N. D. Mitchell? Williams has Edwin T. and Napoleon B. Mitchell] > Moore, R.B. Moran, John > Musselman (Mussellman), B.F. (Sgt) [T. Mussulman in voting list; Williams lists him as Sgt. Robert Musselman] * Nelson, H.J. [Alamo voting list = H. G. Nelson] > Parks, Wm. Pickering, John > Ryan, Isaac >? Sewell, S. [Williams’ Marcus L. Sewell?] * Spratt, Wm. * > Starr, Richard > Summerlin, A.S. * Thomas, Wm. Walker, W. * > Washington, G. [Williams: Joseph G. Washington] > White, Robt. (Lt) _____________
Names on Feb. 1 voting list NOT on Neill’s list:
Jn. James J.B. McManemy James Dickins >? M. Shidal [Williams’ Manson Shied?] Jn. Burns J. H. Nash >? M. Hawkins [Williams’ Joseph M. Hawkins?] Thos. Ryan C. Grimes [Albert Calvin Grimes?] > Square Dayman M. R. Wood > C. C. Hieskell [Williams’ Charles M. Haskell (Heiskell?)] C.C. Wyatt M. Heter J. Duff C. Lanco > J. M. Hays [John M. Hays] G. Gemmys Jesse B. Badgett [representative to convention; didn’t die at Alamo] Char. Asner > James Bowie > Parker, C. Jacob Roth Gregoine Jn. Ballard > Lewis Duel Cap Flowers ? > Henry Warnell > Jn. E. Garven [Garvin] James T. Garner > A[lmeron]. Dickenson S. A. Maverick [elected to convention; did not die at Alamo] > P. H. Herndon > W. C. M. Baker L. Bateright Smith, L. M. > Nelson, E. A. Hilegor H. Johnson > Evans, S. B. > Wilson, D. Jno. Johnson H. Lebarb Robt. Grossen Jno. Morcan Hasey Mana Garcia [Jesus Maria Garcia?] > Thos. Waters Wm. Heagl Mills Andrews Robt. Moon M. Rusk [Williams has Jackson J. Rusk]
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Post by stuart on May 5, 2007 16:48:29 GMT -5
A good start, but I reckon we can whittle down that last list of men who voted but don't appear on Neill's list. Squire Dayman for example must be the S. Damon on Neill's list.
Its pretty clear that the teller recording the names of the voters was either deaf or semi-illiterate given the eccentric spellings.
Overall I'm intrigued by the number of men missed off the voting list, whom not even TRL has claimed as reinforcements. It sems pretty obvious that not everybody present bothered to vote.
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Post by Herb on May 5, 2007 16:55:14 GMT -5
Jim and I did a lot of work but lost it, as Stuart mentioned. While I agree that these two rosters are the logical starting point, I'm just not sure if they are even an accurate snapshot. For example, the two Smiths, JW and Deaf do not appear on either one, both served in Bexar in December and Deaf was wounded. Deaf of course left Bexar with a letter of introduction by Travis before the battle, and JW of course carried messages out and led the 32 in. Are they not on the rosters, because they aren't formally enlisted and/or residents of Bexar? With their notable absence, does that open the possibility that other men were serving with the garrison who weren't being counted on returns? Or, are they being considered part of the local militia and thus aren't many counted as a volunteer or regular?
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Post by TRK on May 5, 2007 16:58:37 GMT -5
Couple of things:
-Beware of Hansen's transcript of the KIA as reported by Amelia Williams; Hansen left out a lot of names (his list was formatted in columns, and it looks like things got glitched up and names omitted)
-I had assumed that the Feb. 1 election list as published in Lindley only included men of voting age (21 by the Texas statutes at the time, as I recall), but I happened to notice at least one person on the list who was 18 at the time of the fall of the Alamo.
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Post by TRK on May 5, 2007 17:01:28 GMT -5
Good points, Wolf. Also, there are reports that numbers of troops were out prospecting for land in the days and weeks before Santa Anna's arrival in Bexar; would they be counted on the rolls, or omitted because they were on leave? In the U.S. Army at the time, a notation would be made on the rolls if somebody was on furlough or extra duty or detached service, but I don't know if the Texan Army did things that way.
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Post by Herb on May 5, 2007 17:12:14 GMT -5
Also, there are reports that numbers of troops were out prospecting for land in the days and weeks before Santa Anna's arrival in Bexar; would they be counted on the rolls, or omitted because they were on leave? In the U.S. Army at the time, a notation would be made on the rolls if somebody was on furlough or extra duty or detached service, but I don't know if the Texan Army did things that way. As I recall, David Cummings, was one of the garrison members that was out, and he probably returned with the Gonzales 32. Yet Travis' letter of March 3rd seperates the 140 men of Travis command from the Gonzales 32...?
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Post by Allen Wiener on May 5, 2007 18:16:36 GMT -5
Couple of things: -Beware of Hansen's transcript of the KIA as reported by Amelia Williams; Hansen left out a lot of names (his list was formatted in columns, and it looks like things got glitched up and names omitted) -I had assumed that the Feb. 1 election list as published in Lindley only included men of voting age (21 by the Texas statutes at the time, as I recall), but I happened to notice at least one person on the list who was 18 at the time of the fall of the Alamo. This is probably a red herring, but how was the voting age determined at this moment in time? The Texans hadn't declared independence yet or laid down any real statutes, as far as I recall. AW
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Post by stuart on May 6, 2007 4:20:41 GMT -5
I’ve had a fair bit of experience of working with 18th and 19th century muster rolls and other, similar nominal lists and as a result I’d say I’m pretty good at “reading” them.
The first and most obvious pitfall as I mentioned above is that unless they’re proper rolls maintained by a clerk who knows what he’s doing and regularly checked by an adjutant or other supervisor, they tend to be riddled with spelling errors which get multiplied in transcription. These arise first from the clerk being told somebody’s name but having to take a wild guess at the spelling (eg: Damon/Dayman), and putting down initials rather than given names. This produces two immediate pitfalls; the man in question may not necessarily be known by his first name, while the initials themselves not being backed up by the rest of the name are particularly prone to mis-transcription; T and J, probably being the most easily confused. The Alamo voting list is signed by J. Melton as Clerk of the Election, but his own name appears on TRL’s transcript as E. Melton!
This is why I think a little more “boiling down” is going to be needed to consolidate and compare the Neill list and the voting list.
The second, and probably more important pitfall is establishing what the roll is actually supposed to be showing; the purpose of the voting roll is obvious enough in that it records the votes cast on February 1 1836 for four nominees. We can (fairly) safely conclude that everyone on the roll was in Bexar on that date, but we can’t necessarily go on to conclude that they represented all of the officers and men belonging to the garrison at that time or who would belong to it three weeks later.
The Neill roll at first sight appears more straightforward, except that the purported date may be misleading. February 14 appears when he reported to the Council, so at the very least it must have been compiled no later than February 11 when he left Bexar, and may actually have been compiled some time before. The question is how long before? Clearly it post-dates Grant’s departure with well over 200 men on January 1. On January 6 Neill reported that he had 104 men, which corresponds pretty closely with the 110 names on his roll. Seemingly on that basis and the obvious absence of James Bowie et al. Wallace Chariton (Alamo Legends p166-167) came to the conclusion that it was a roll enclosed with Neill’s January 6 letter and referred to in a Council minute of January 15.
However while this is a tempting connection to make, the list doesn’t include Captain John Chenoweth, who left Bexar with about 20 men on January 15, having been ordered by Houston to garrison Copano.
Nor of course does it include James Bowie. Chariton (op.cit.) was of the opinion that he arrived in Bexar on or about January 19, but we have no positive date for this event. Houston ordered him there from Goliad on January 17, and the earliest reference I can find to him there is in a letter by Neill of January 23, referring to a conversation the previous day. This could point to the roll having been compiled at some point between January 15 and January 21, but if so why was it set down at that particular time?
I’m still inclined to think therefore that as it plainly isn’t the list sent with Neill’s January 6 letter, it was indeed the one carried by him when he left Bexar on February 11, but that instead of providing a snapshot of all the Texians in Bexar on that date it is exactly what it says; a list of the permanent garrison of the Alamo; the staff, the (regular) artillery company under Captain Carey, and an infantry company under Captain Blazeby, who as I said had been doing duty throughout the winter without pay or adequate supplies; but it quite deliberately doesn’t include the newly arrived Auxiliary Volunteers.
That should mean therefore that we have a solid list of the permanent garrison as of February 10, (albeit there are a couple of question-marks over individuals) to which we can add what we know of Travis’ cavalry and the various volunteer units.
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Post by TRK on May 6, 2007 9:25:05 GMT -5
Quoting Allen: "This is probably a red herring, but how was the voting age determined at this moment in time? The Texans hadn't declared independence yet or laid down any real statutes, as far as I recall." Not a red herring at all, because if some of the younger members of the Bexar garrison didn't appear on the voting list, it might be the reason why. A while ago I did a search to find the legal age for electors for the 1836 Convention and found some information (I didn't make a note of the source) that suggested it was twenty-one. I haven't been able to relocate the reference, and admit that I may have been extrapolating from the Texas Constitution of March 17, 1836, Article 6, Sec. 11, which sets the age for citizens voting for members of the general congress as twenty-one. That, I believe, is the only stipulation concerning voting age in the 1836 Constitution, so voting age for other national and local offices may have varied by area. (BTW, The Mexican Federal Constitution of 1824 doesn't stipulate a voting age at all, as far as I can see.) Quote, "The Texans hadn't declared independence yet or laid down any real statutes, as far as I recall." But the provisional government was issuing plenty of ordinances and decrees during the war of independence, in advance of the 1836 Convention. Check out Gammel's Laws of Texas, Vol I. It's a grunt to view it online, but you can jump in here if you like and scroll back and front, page by page: texashistory.unt.edu/permalink/meta-pth-5872:1055I hope the preceding doesn't seem off-topic, and I don't intend to push it, but voting age does seem to have some bearing on the Feb. 1 voting list, which is at least a partial roster of the garrison on that date.
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Post by Allen Wiener on May 6, 2007 9:58:32 GMT -5
It also raises a related question -- what were the requirements for being a candidate to the Convention? Texians, including those in Bexar, elected these representatives around the time Crockett decided to enlist. There is some suggestion that he may have considered running for a seat at the Convention and in his only letter from Texas suggests that merely enlisting qualified a person to run for a seat and to vote:
"But all volunteers is entitled to a vote for a member of the convention or to be voted for, and I have but little doubt of being elected a member to form a constitution for this province."
In the same letter he mentions his intention to travel to the Rio Grande, as Stuart mentioned earlier ("...have enrolled my name as a volunteer and will set out for the Rio Grand in a few days with the volunteers from the United States."). I wonder why they thought to go all the way to the Rio Grande? Did anyone have any idea or information regarding formations of troops down there? It also makes me wonder where the Texians thought the border of Texas and Mexico was -- the Rio Grande or the Neces??? I'm a little weak on the geography, but the Texas-Mexico border became an issue when the U.S. was debating the idea to invade Mexico ten years later. Lincoln was in Congress then and gave a speech disputing the adimistration's claim to the Rio Grande as the border.
[Maybe this is a bit off the subject at hand here and can be moved to another thread if there's anything more to it].
AW
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Post by stuart on May 6, 2007 10:06:39 GMT -5
The Rio Grande reference is straightforward enough. Crockett, like most of the other volunteers (and Travis) was saddling up to go to Matamoros.
As for the voting qualifications, people may be on to something here; the voting list has a note at the bottom certifying that "The election was held in the Alamo fort on the first day of February, in strict conformity with the law" (Traces p322)
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Post by TRK on May 6, 2007 13:39:18 GMT -5
Seems possible "Naraw (Naran), G." of Carey's artillery, per Neill's rolls, was "Gerald Navin," of Parrott's artillery company, Siege of Bexar, per roll of Nov. 23, 1835: www.mindspring.com/~dmaxey/l/parrtl9l.htm
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