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Mr Rose
Aug 2, 2010 18:27:10 GMT -5
Post by Allen Wiener on Aug 2, 2010 18:27:10 GMT -5
I've re-read the pertinent Lindley chapters (actually 5, 6, & 7) and agree with Stuart's interpretation. The key chapter is actually 5, which is the most clearly written and persuasively argued. I have to wonder why anyone ever bought the Zuber/Rose story. Apparently they didn't for many years, but it gained credibility later on, due in no small part of Zuber's undying efforts and the work of the unreliable Blake. I had also forgotten that a similar story appeared in 1836, not long after the battle, in the fictional book Col. Crockett's Exploits & Adventures in Texas, which includes a bogus Crockett "diary."
There is fertile ground here for confusion or deliberate misrepresentation due to the number of people named "Rose" or "Ross," real or imaginary, who are involved (Louis, Moses, Stephen and the one known Alamo casualty, James M. Rose).
Allen
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Mr Rose
Aug 4, 2010 14:11:38 GMT -5
Post by marklemon on Aug 4, 2010 14:11:38 GMT -5
To me the jury is still out on this one. I find it incomprehensible, especially given the tenor of the times, that a man would freely admit to being what would certainly be looked upon as a coward, and defiantly defend himself, if it weren't true. To what end would someone disgrace himself, admitting to being a coward, ensuring his being shunned and denigrated among his peers for the rest of his life? There are all sorts of examples of people engaging in false grandiose claims for their own benefit, but far, far fewer of the opposite. It just is counter intuitive to think a man would admit to something that was against his own self-interest. There is a kernel of truth hidden somewhere in this story, and I think it's premature to dismiss it out of hand.
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Mr Rose
Aug 4, 2010 14:25:28 GMT -5
Post by Allen Wiener on Aug 4, 2010 14:25:28 GMT -5
Perhaps I'm mistaken in my interpretation of Lindley, but I came away from his book not sure there ever really was a Moses Rose or anyone named Rose who ever had actually told such a story. We have only Zuber's word. There was only one man named Rose known to have been in the Alamo and that was J. M. Rose, who died there.
As I say, perhaps I'm just not understanding something in Lindley's work, but that's my impression -- there may never have been such a person, despite the several individuals named Rose (Louis, Moses, Stephen, James M.) whose names have played a part in this story.
I might add that Rose's alleged nonexistence does not necessarily refute the idea of Travis having drawn a line, either literally or figuratively, at some point as a way of leveling with his men, as Herb suggested elsewhere. As Lindley noted, there is a similar story in Exploits and Adventures, the story about Milam drawing such a line during the siege of Bexar, and other examples of a line being used to give soldiers an opportunity to vote with their feet. Since Zuber's story, flaky to start with, did not appear until the 1870s, he had plenty of time to become aware of these other examples and concoct the whole Rose story.
Be that as it may, I still love the 1995 song "Moses Rose of Texas," written by Stephen L. Suffet and sung to the tune “Yellow Rose of Texas.” Carl Peterson's recording of it is found on his CD Scotland Remembers the Alamo.
Allen
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Mr Rose
Aug 4, 2010 16:17:34 GMT -5
Post by stuart on Aug 4, 2010 16:17:34 GMT -5
Perhaps I'm mistaken in my interpretation of Lindley, but I came away from his book not sure there ever really was a Moses Rose or anyone named Rose who ever had actually told such a story. We have only Zuber's word. There was only one man named Rose known to have been in the Alamo and that was J. M. Rose, who died there. Allen That was my impression too. Its interesting that Amelia Williams specifically made the point that he should not be confused with James Rose and other than referring to Zuber's story with clear reservations does not include him as a defender.
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Mr Rose
Aug 4, 2010 18:38:16 GMT -5
Post by Chuck T on Aug 4, 2010 18:38:16 GMT -5
Stuart or Allen: Does the Dickensen line story pre-date or post date Zuber?
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Mr Rose
Aug 4, 2010 20:07:14 GMT -5
Post by Allen Wiener on Aug 4, 2010 20:07:14 GMT -5
The Zuber story was not published until 1873, long after Susanna had given several of her versions of what happened. In fact, once discrepancies were found between her testimony and Zuber's later yarn, Zuber tried to discredit her or suggest she couldn't know as much as he (or Rose) did about what happened at the Alamo. He even concocted a bogus story about her having somehow gotten out of the fort before Travis gave his speech, and being sequestered in a church in Bexar, so she wouldn't have known about it. He also suggests that Travis and others, including Smith, got dates or times wrong to explain away why Smith never mentioned anything about a line or a Travis speech. His version is not only contradicted by Travis and Smith, but by Mexican sources as well! The more he talked the more Zuber's nose seemed to grow. Check out Lindley's Alamo Traces; the more I read it, the more smelly Zuber's story got.
Allen
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Mr Rose
Oct 28, 2011 14:27:40 GMT -5
Post by Hollowhorn on Oct 28, 2011 14:27:40 GMT -5
The tale that Rose allegedly related to Ma & Pa Zuber & the subsequent retelling of the story by William P. are really two different entities. We can never know for sure what Rose told the Zubers (if anything) We only have William's 1873 account of an event that was purportedly handed down to him by his parents. This account of course contains the 'Line in the Sand' story.
There is no hard evidence as to what Rose may or may not have told the Zubers. There is no hard evidence regarding the source of William's account. There is no hard evidence for the 'Line in the Sand' story.
It's down to the reader to accept, deny or keep an open mind on William's account & the endorsement of it by his mother.
What is not in doubt is that Travis never uttered the words that William P. Zuber put into his mouth. These are Zuber's own words:
In other words, he made it up.
Something niggled me while reading Zuber's account & it was only when I reached the part where he admitted that Travis' speech was naught but a figment of his own imagination that I realised what was niggling me, it was the following line:
I just could not believe that Travis would use those words in the context of this particular speech, they were so out of tune with the rest of the language used. In the end it does not matter, it was all smoke & mirrors to begin with.
As an aside, the Handbook of Texas Online states that it was a 'gun' that was donated to the museum, it also states that (via Enrique Esparza):
The Zuber version:
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Mr Rose
Nov 1, 2011 14:42:43 GMT -5
Post by loucapitano on Nov 1, 2011 14:42:43 GMT -5
I've been behind the curve on research into Louis Rose so let me understand this: Was Louis (Moses) Rose was a real person who was at the Alamo and escaped? Did Rose actually refer to himself as the "Coward of the Alamo?" If there is evidence that the above two statemnts are true, does it make the heroic Zuber story more or less credible?
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Mr Rose
Nov 1, 2011 15:47:31 GMT -5
Post by Chuck T on Nov 1, 2011 15:47:31 GMT -5
Lou: If something looks like a fish and smells like a fish, there is, in my mind anyway, a better than even chance that it is a fish.
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Post by Allen Wiener on Nov 2, 2011 9:12:51 GMT -5
Lou, I again refer to the pertinent chapters in Lindley's "Alamo Traces." It's the most thorough and persuasive discussion of the Rose issue to date. The thumbnail description of Rose's alleged exploits, posted above, is not at all reliable. As I said above, there may never even have been a Mr. Rose at all, thus no self-references to himself as the "coward of the Alamo" or anything else. This thing seems to have taken on a life of its own long after the fact.
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Mr Rose
Nov 2, 2011 13:18:36 GMT -5
Post by Kevin Young on Nov 2, 2011 13:18:36 GMT -5
The Coward of the Alamo tag has more to do with the Don Bowman song that the historical Rose-as brought out in that excellent book on Alamo Music by Bill Chemerka and that othe guy...
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Mr Rose
Nov 2, 2011 13:33:38 GMT -5
Post by Allen Wiener on Nov 2, 2011 13:33:38 GMT -5
Thanks, Kevin! I've reached the point where I can't recall who that other guy was either. Sad, isn't it? Now, if I can just remember where the hell I left my car!
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Mr Rose
Nov 2, 2011 14:50:47 GMT -5
Post by Kevin Young on Nov 2, 2011 14:50:47 GMT -5
Section T, Row X, spot 1836. And that ends the jokes before we get in trouble. ;D
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Mr Rose
Nov 3, 2011 15:01:50 GMT -5
Post by Hollowhorn on Nov 3, 2011 15:01:50 GMT -5
I notice that contained in the items listed on the RR auction site below, one document listed as 'Item 15 : Alamo' This document shows two pages signed by “Andrew J. Baker, Comm. Genl. Land Office” in 1898. It is a list of men who fell in the Alamo. On page two is an entry for a private 'Rose' of Nacogdoches. preview.rrauction.com/bidtracker_detail.cfm?IN=15
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Mr Rose
Nov 3, 2011 16:44:52 GMT -5
Post by Rich Curilla on Nov 3, 2011 16:44:52 GMT -5
Very interesting. Of course, this list was copied from General Land Office records at a time that was way after the Rose story hit the streets, so...............
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