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Post by cantador4u on Jun 30, 2010 0:07:21 GMT -5
Part of the Alamo story/myth is that Major Robert Evans was attempting to set fire to the remaining gunpowder stored in the Alamo church but was killed before being able to finish his task. Aside from the debate whether it was Maj Robert Evens or John Wayne who was going to destroy or did destroy the powder :-), how likely is it that this actually happened?
In movies and TV, whenever fire touches gunpowder there is ALWAYS a huge explosion. I'm knowledgeable of the differences between today's smokeless powder and black powder. As a kid we'd put black powder into spent CO2 cartridges and make a big and dangerous BANG, complete with shrapnel. How was gun powder stored in 1836 and how likely is it that it would have just burned up in a large fireball vs exploded?
I was under the impression that the Alamo defenders had stopped returning cannon fire. Was it because they had few or no cannon balls, or little gunpowder? Or both? Wasn't a lot of their cannon powder inferior Mexican Army powder surrendered in their defeat the previous December?
If the Alamo didn't have much powder left then what would be the point of destroying the little bit that was left, possibly killing the women and children non-combatants who were also in the church?
In short I'm wondering if the Major Robert Evans story has any validity and what were the circumstances surrounding the gunpowder in the Alamo. What is myth and what is history?
- Paul Meske, Sun Prairie, Wisconsin
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Post by Donald Hash on Jun 30, 2010 0:55:00 GMT -5
A related Major Evans question: Back in the summer of 1994 ther was a plaque in the floor of the Chapel on the spot where he was killed. In April of 2010 the plaque was no longer there. Where did it go?
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Post by garyzaboly on Jun 30, 2010 6:54:38 GMT -5
According to Mrs. Dickinson the powder in the "gunpowder room" was mostly what the Texians acquired after Cos' surrender. It was "badly damaged [so] useless in guns." This may be overstatement, but other Texas Revolution accounts did verify the poor quality of Mexican black powder.
It was not unusual for a fort's magazine to be deliberately exploded by a garrison when the fort was in danger of being captured; history has a number of such examples, especially in Europe. Why leave an enemy a gunpowder supply, however inferior that supply?
The accounts of Robert Evans attempting to blow up the magazine arose very early---as early as the first accounts derived from Mrs. Dickinson, Joe, etc. But it wasn't a suicide mission for Evans: it was said that a TRAIN of powder had been laid. Evidently, if the episode were true, he had been shot down long before reaching the head of that powder line.
How would the confessional room withstood the blast? Good question! Jameson and Sutherland noted the room's very strong composition ("plastered perfectly tight," noted Sutherland). How was the powder stored? Another good question only research and educated guesswork might answer. (Just piles of kegs as seen in the Wayne film?...seems too easy an answer). Some of the amateur soldiers at the Alamo probably knew the basics of storing and handling black powder, so understanding what was the contemporary norm for this would provide clues.
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Post by greatbigmike on Jun 30, 2010 9:27:28 GMT -5
There is a lot to consider when talking about powder storage. Besides the powder there are other items such as cartridges (for both long gun and cannon) and any other exploding ordnance that may have been stored. Powder also comes in different grades (size of grains). This is because different grades of powder have different uses. One would not use the same powder in cannon that would be used to prime a riffle. Even a lesser quality powder, which may not be suitable for rifles and muskets, may work in something such as cannon. I wonder if there was an established powder magazine in the city before the Revolution, it seems almost every town, of any size, in the United States had laws regulating the storage, sale and transportation of gunpowder. I don’t read Spanish so I have to defer to those fellow scholars who do and might have already studied this.
Here is a British reference from that time; I use it because the Mexicans were buying supplies from them.
9. OF POWDER BARRELS, AND POWDER BOXES FOR LAND SERVICE. NUMBER OF EACH, THAT THE TRIANGULAR FIELD POWDER MAGAZINE WILL CONTAIN. First.—Dimensions of the Common Powder Barrel.
In the British service, gun powder for land service is kept in barrels, not entirely full, of the average length of 1 foot 9 inches, and of the average extreme width of 1 foot 5 ½ inches, measured exteriorly, which dimensions determine the space required for stowage, it being observed however, that when placed in tiers, every course excepting the undermost will occupy a less average height by about two inches than the extreme diameter of one barrel, by laying the upper barrels in the hollows between those of the course beneath. Each barrel contains 90 lbs. of powder, and as the barrel itself usually weighs about 28 lbs., the average weight of a filled barrel is 118 lbs. These barrels are opened, by setting them upright and taking out the upper end, after first knocking off a couple of the extreme hoops at that end; and when they are to be used again, this ought to be done by a cooper, or at least by a very careful man.
Secondly.—Number of Powder Barrels that the Triangular Field Powder Magazine will contain.
If one of the triangular field powder magazines, which forms the subject of this section, were to be filled with the common powder barrels above described, I would recommend them to be laid in three tiers or courses. The first or lowest course to consist of three rows of 8 barrels each, placed longitudinally on the floor of the powder magazine, and as close to the sloping side as possible, and wedged on the other side to prevent them from rolling. The second course to consist of two rows of 8 barrels each, and the third course to consist of one row only, also of 8 barrels. This makes 48 barrels in all, containing 4320 lbs. or 540 rounds for a 24 pounder breaching battery, placed as I before observed, longitudinally, or so that the extreme length of the barrels shall agree with that of the body of the magazine, of which they will fill 14 feet in length, leaving at the same time a sufficiently convenient passage, along the whole of the perpendicular side of the magazine, from one end to the other.
Thirdly.—Dimensions of the New Powder Box for Land Service.
It may be remarked, that there are strong objections to the system of filling the field powder magazines of the gun batteries in a siege, with common powder barrels. For it is evident, that in this case it would be necessary to open the barrels, and make up the powder into cartridges, in the magazine itself, which is not a good arrangement; for accidents are much more likely to occur from handling loose powder, at or near the batteries, when engaged with the guns of the fortress, than at the park or depot of artillery, at some distance in rear of the trenches, which is not exposed to the enemy's fire at all.
Oblong wooden boxes, filled with cartridges for the heavy guns, were therefore generally used in all our siege batteries, during the late wars; but recently, instead of a variety of sizes for the service of different calibers, it has been proposed to adopt a general powder box of a new pattern for land service, to be fitted to the limbers of field pieces, as well as to limber waggons, and which it is also proposed to use in future for the service of sieges. This box measures 19 inches in length, 11 ½ inches in width, and 18 inches in depth from out to out, including in the last dimension the thickness of a couple of small rope handles near the ends. It opens at one end, and is always to be filled with powder in cartridges, but the extreme weight of the powder is limited to 80 lbs. Hence one of these boxes will hold ten rounds for a 24 pounder, employed in breaching, in cartridges of 8 lbs. each, being the full service charge for that caliber. The box itself weighs rather more than 22J lbs., so that including also the flannel, the total weight of each box when full will be about 104 lbs.
Fourthly.—Number of Powder Boxes, that the Triangular Field Powder Magazine will contain.
The most advantageous method of stowing them, so as to leave a passage along the upright side of the body of the magazine, is to place two rows of boxes transversely, in the first row, laying them ou their sides, to take up less height, and over these to place one row transversely in the second course, setting them upright, and one row longitudinally and also upright, in the third course. By this arrangement, there will be 20 boxes in the first course, 15 in the second, and 8 in the third, making 43 in all, so that the magazine will hold 3440 lbs. or 430 rounds for a 24 pounder breaching battery.
Of the boxes, thus stowed, 25 may be opened, and the cartridges taken out, without displacing any of the others. One row only of the lower tier cannot be got at, until all the other boxes shall be removed.
Remark. Cartridges have not hitherto been used for mortars, so that in all our late sieges, the powder has been sent to the mortar batteries, exclusively in barrels.
RULES ... FOR CONDUCTING THE PRACTICAL OPERATIONS OF A SIEGE. Author Charles William Pasley Published 1829 Page 188
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Post by TRK on Jun 30, 2010 9:39:04 GMT -5
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Post by Herb on Jun 30, 2010 10:06:01 GMT -5
I was under the impression that the Alamo defenders had stopped returning cannon fire. Was it because they had few or no cannon balls, or little gunpowder? Or both? Wasn't a lot of their cannon powder inferior Mexican Army powder surrendered in their defeat the previous December? If the Alamo didn't have much powder left then what would be the point of destroying the little bit that was left, possibly killing the women and children non-combatants who were also in the church? - Paul Meske, Sun Prairie, Wisconsin I'm still having computer problems and am away from any source material. The Mexican post battle inventories, imo, leave a bit of a mixed picture. There was plenty of ammunition (except for the 18 pounder) but powder may have been another story, it depends on what exactly the definition of cannon cartridges were in the inventory. The Texians were returning considerable fire the first few days of the siege. But, it seems to me, that Travis must have reached a decision around the 25th/26th to severely restrict return fire. Whether this was based on the total % of powder used, or more probably in my opinion the high comsumption of the better quality American powder, I'm not sure. Travis's reasoning though was realistic, he had no idea how long the powder would have to last or how many skirmishes like the one on the 25th he would have to face before he was relieved or resupplied. I think the seeming surplus of ammunition seized on March 6th, owed more to the garrison being surprised and not keeping the Mexican outside the walls (and within the cannons' engagement zones) for a prolonged time. Rather than to an error by Travis conserving ammo during the siege.
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Post by garyzaboly on Jun 30, 2010 14:04:38 GMT -5
Among the items surrendered to the Texians by Cos in 1835 were "a bag containing one hundred pounds of powder," "9 bags [of] grape shot with cartridges," many "packages [containing] musket cartridges," " 1 box powder," and boxes containing cartridges and cannon balls.
So the magazine at the Alamo probably had a good mix of boxes and sacks and barrels and/or kegs.
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Post by cantador4u on Jul 1, 2010 0:36:00 GMT -5
Quote: "I think the seeming surplus of ammunition seized on March 6th, owed more to the garrison being surprised and not keeping the Mexican outside the walls (and within the cannons' engagement zones) for a prolonged time. Rather than to an error by Travis conserving ammo during the siege."
There must be a list of items captured by the Mexican Army on March 6. Does it list the amount of powder?
I was also thinking that perhaps the gunpowder had been put in small pre-measured bags that could be quickly stuffed into the gun barrel. A cannon is not like a rifle where you can place the gun barrel vertical to easily pour a measured amount down it. Shoving a bunch of loose gunpowder into an almost horizontal cannon barrel would be pretty messy.
So with regard to Major Evans, the story of his attempt to destroy the remaining gun powder is probably true though probably not as dramatic as portrayed in movies or written about???
Paul Meske, Sun Prairie, Wisconsin
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Post by garyzaboly on Jul 1, 2010 5:01:32 GMT -5
Quote: "I think the seeming surplus of ammunition seized on March 6th, owed more to the garrison being surprised and not keeping the Mexican outside the walls (and within the cannons' engagement zones) for a prolonged time. Rather than to an error by Travis conserving ammo during the siege." There must be a list of items captured by the Mexican Army on March 6. Does it list the amount of powder? I was also thinking that perhaps the gunpowder had been put in small pre-measured bags that could be quickly stuffed into the gun barrel. A cannon is not like a rifle where you can place the gun barrel vertical to easily pour a measured amount down it. Shoving a bunch of loose gunpowder into an almost horizontal cannon barrel would be pretty messy. So with regard to Major Evans, the story of his attempt to destroy the remaining gun powder is probably true though probably not as dramatic as portrayed in movies or written about??? Paul Meske, Sun Prairie, Wisconsin Powder-wise, General Ampudia's military report of seized munitions at the Alamo on March 6 include "3 Kegs of fine powder," "14,600 Rifle [sic...musket] cartridges with bullets," and hundreds of combined cartridge/cannonballs for loading of various sizes, from 12- down to 2-pounders. Also noted: grapeshot in bags. The rest essentially loose round shot, grenades, or grapeshot unattached to powder bags or cans. I think there is a good chance that Evans was assigned that particular duty.
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Post by greatbigmike on Jul 1, 2010 8:39:33 GMT -5
No. 5.—Inventory of Military Stores delivered in conformity with the Capitulation entered into on the 11th of December, 1835, between General Martin Perfecto de Cos, of the Permanent Troops, and General Edward Burleson, of the Colonial Troops of Texas.
IN BEXAR
30 useless muskets, 5 boxes ammunition, 4 drums, 4 boxes with 66 hats and 49 blankets of the company of Lancers, 1 bale with 12 dozen blankets, 1 four-pound cannon, mounted, 1 chinesco, 2 trumpets, 2 clarions, 1 large clarion, 2 cymbals.
IN THE ALAMO. 2 four-pound cannon, mounted, 1 small brass do., 1 four-pound field-piece, 1 do. three-pounder, complete, 1 rammer, 1 cannon, four pounder, with carriage and rammer, 1 iron culverine, of nine-inch calibre, mounted, 1 howitzer of five-inch calibre, 1 cannon, six pounder, 1 field-piece, four-pounder, 1 cannon, three-pounder, mounted, 1 ditto six-pounder, mounted, 257 carabines and muskets.
IN THE ARSENAL. 11,000 musket cartridges, 2 cartouch boxes, 10 bags grape shot, 9 do. with cartridges, 18 swivel worms, 8 howitzer do., 100 small cannon cartridges, 18 packages musket cartridges, 10 port-fires, 16 swivel worms, 40 swivel cartridges, 1 bag containing 100 pounds of powder, 50 packages cartridges, 16 do. do., 1 box cartridges, damp, 1 box musket cartridges, 1 box powder, 1200 musket cartridges, 1 ammunition box with 20 cannon balls, 10 quick matches, 1 box howitzer worms, 3 boxes musket cartridges, 2 ammunition boxes with 40 cannon balls, 1 match cord, 1 box howitzer worms, 1 box cartridges, 2 do. do., 7 empty ammunition chests, 17 muskets, 1 bugle, 2 boxes ammunition, 1 rammer, 1 lanthorn, 4 large cannon, 2 swivels, 1 four-pound cannon, mounted, 1 box (26 stands) of grape, 1 box musket cartridges, 1 bag of powder, 1 bag of gun flints, 1 drum, 15 carabines, out of order, 11 packages cannon ball, 1 piece small ordnance.
DELIVERED BY MANCHACA. 67 muskets, 15 coats, 9 gun locks, 49 duck jackets, 1 bunch of wire, 3 bars of steel, 1 small do. of iron, 1 bunch flax thread, 15 skeins sewing silk, 63 duck jackets, 2 barrels containing 166 bayonets, 9 aparejos, 58 lances, 1 pair scales with weights, 1 piece of linsey, 50 muskets with bayonets, 13 lances. Bexar, December 13,1835.
Delivered by JUAN CORTINA, J. FRANCISCO DE RADA, FRANCISCO HERRERA. Received by JAMES CHESHIRE, WILLIAM G. COOK, W. H. PATTON. [Copy.] F. W. JOHNSON, Colonel Commanding.
HISTORY OF THE REVOLUTION IN TEXAS, PARTICULARLY OF THE WAR OF 1835 & '36: TOGETHER WITH THE LATEST GEOGRAPHICAL, TOPOGRAPHICAL, AND STATISTICAL ACCOUNTS OF THE COUNTRY, FROM THE MOST AUTHENTIC SOURCES By Rev. Chester Newell Published by Wiley & Putnam, New York, 1838 Page 207
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Post by garyzaboly on Jul 1, 2010 12:40:02 GMT -5
A lot of the above-listed Mexican-surrendered 1835 munitions, along with several artillery pieces and other supplies, had been removed from San Antonio and taken south with Grant and Johnson in December....to Col. Neill's distress.
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Post by Donald Hash on Jul 1, 2010 13:11:24 GMT -5
A related Major Evans question: Back in the summer of 1994 ther was a plaque in the floor of the Chapel on the spot where he was killed. In April of 2010 the plaque was no longer there. Where did it go? Maybe I just happened to miss the plaque on the latest visit? I could've swore it was near the Chapel's north-facing door that visitors presently exit out of.
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