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Post by marklemon on Mar 15, 2010 11:06:20 GMT -5
I recently had occasion to briefly discuss the 1824 flag with author Jim Donovan in Alamo plaza. He found a reference in the DRT Library regarding this flag, relative to its presence at the Alamo at some time after the Texians occupied the place . This got me to searching for the reference relating to Grant and Johnson's taking the flag with them on the Matamoros Expedition, but I was unable to locate it.
Does anyone here have this reference?
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Post by stuart on Mar 15, 2010 11:40:20 GMT -5
I'll dig it up when I get home but there's a proclamation supposedly written by Johnson (but more likely Grant) which refers to it, rtogether with a couple of other refs.
Urrea reported taking a flag at San Patricio which is generally supposed to be the very one.
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Post by Hiram on Mar 15, 2010 11:54:16 GMT -5
I have from a reliable source that the "Constitution of 1824" tricolor resides in the same museum in Mexico City as the New Orleans Greys flag.
I believe its reliable because the source is not a historian and had no prior knowledge of the flag's existence. It was shown to them by a curator while visiting the National Museum of History at Chapultepec Castle in Mexico City.
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Post by Kevin Young on Mar 15, 2010 12:53:58 GMT -5
I have from a reliable source that the "Constitution of 1824" tricolor resides in the same museum in Mexico City as the New Orleans Greys flag.
I believe its reliable because the source is not a historian and had no prior knowledge of the flag's existence. It was shown to them by a curator while visiting the National Museum of History at Chapultepec Castle in Mexico City. Is that a "the" or an "a" Constitution of 1824 flag. If so, wonder where they got it? |
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Post by Hiram on Mar 15, 2010 23:37:44 GMT -5
Philip Dimmitt to Stephen F. Austin on October 27, 1835, "I have had a flag made, the colours, and their arrangement the same as the old one-with the words and figures, `Constitution of 1824,' displayed on the white, in the centre."
There was a supplementary to an ordinance and decree granting letters of marque and reprisal on 25 November 1835 that specifically referenced the 1824 flag.
"...all vessels sailing under Licenses, as Letters of Marque and Reprisal, which have been, or may be hereafter granted by the Governor and Council, or by the Governor, as provided in this supplementary Ordinance, or under any register or license of this Government, shall carry the flag of the Republic of the United States of Mexico, and shall have the figures 1, 8, 2, 4, cyphered in large Arabics on the white ground thereof."
Based on the information from Dimmitt's letter and the supplement, I believe the flag which was seen in Mexico City was in fact the Dimmitt flag. The source specifically mentioned seeing the phrase "Constitution of" on the tricolor, and this source had no knowledge of any such flag until they apparently laid eyes on it.
How did it end up there? I think Stuart referenced the 1824 flag in his endnotes (PTR?) If it was captured at San Patricio or Agua Dulce, then it probably ended up in Mexico. Dimmitt was captured on 4 July 1841 in the Nueces Strip by Mexican troops, and they looted his trading post. Perhaps it came from there? Who knows?
While imprisoned in a Mexican dungeon, Dimmitt chose to take his own life and wrote the following:
I do not fear death but dread the idea of ending my life in a loathsome dungeon. Tell them I prefer a Roman's death to the ignominy of perpetual imprisonment, and that my last wish is for my country's welfare.
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Post by stuart on Mar 16, 2010 1:34:14 GMT -5
The reference is indeed to PTR 3:467-8 and is quoted on page 86 of Secret War:
"Under sanction of the the general council of Texas, they [Grant's Federal Volunteer Army] have taken up the line of march to the country west of the Rio Grande. They march under the flag 1.8.2.4, as proclaimed by the government of Texas..."
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Post by marklemon on Mar 16, 2010 10:56:28 GMT -5
Hiram and Stuart,
Many thanks....I knew I had read that somewhere, but couldn't put my hands on the specific reference. The only question in my mind now is: How many of these "1824" flags were there, and was the one taken by Grant the same one that was seen, however briefly, atop the Alamo church after its occupation by the Texians? If it's the same one, that lessens the chance that such a flag was present during the Feb-Mar siege. If different, it seems to strengthen the chances.
Mark
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Post by stuart on Mar 16, 2010 11:23:10 GMT -5
Perhaps the two blue stars were sewn on the flag not to signify anything, but to cover up the Constitution of 1824. As pointed out before it could have been quite a big flag, while the one carried by Grant's men can't have been more than 4x4 or thereabouts
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Post by Herb on Mar 16, 2010 11:39:13 GMT -5
There were several 1824 Flags, remember it was the Flag of the Texas Navy and Texas privateers, from 1835 until significantly after San Jacinto.
I don't remember the proper Navy nomenclature or the technical differences, but the 1824 Flag was eventually replaced by the Lone Star and Stripes as a battle flag/everyday flag (see for example the original cover of Commodore Moore's 1843 book). The Lone Star Flag was also eventually flown, but apparently only as a National Color on formal occasions such as enterring a foreign port.
I'm not sure what Flag was flying when the Mexican ships, Liberatador and Vencedor del Alamo captured the Texas Flagship, Independence, off Matamoros. It was this battle, according to Mexican newspapers, that they recaptured the "Golden Standard" that they claimed had been mounted on Independence after it's loss at San Jacinto.
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Post by Hiram on Mar 16, 2010 14:36:56 GMT -5
I don't remember the proper Navy nomenclature or the technical differences, but the 1824 Flag was eventually replaced by the Lone Star and Stripes as a battle flag/everyday flag (see for example the original cover of Commodore Moore's 1843 book).
An act which adopted a National Seal, National Standard, and a national flag for the naval service was later ratified, confirmed and approved on 10 December 1836. The ratification used the same nomenclature as the Burnet order in its description of the naval flag. |
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Post by marklemon on Mar 16, 2010 15:52:02 GMT -5
Burnet issued an order creating a flag for the naval service on 9 April 1836. The conformation of the flag was union blue, star central, thirteen stripes prolonged, alternate red and white. It's my understanding that by early 1836, the "star and stripes" flag had become the de facto flag of the revolution. Personally, it has my vote as the most likely candidate for Travis' "$5 flag." It's close similarity to the US standard would, I think, have appealed to WBT, who would've wanted his flag to be nothing like a Mexican one. And being a popular flag, it would have possibly been more readily available in San Felipe, and thus be easy for Travis to have purchased. But this then begs the question: If this was Travis' flag, and it flew at the siege, why wasn't it taken as a trophy and presented to the Mexican government, to show the heavy US influence among the rebels? A debatable source may hold the answer....The tantalizing reference, if true, (Creed Taylor?) to the "Dodson flag" being found in tatters in the Alamo after its fall, may (I stress "may") actually be a reference to the star and stripes, in that the fragment found may have been the blue field with lone white star, and was mis-identified as a portion of the Dodson flag, which we know was actually flying over the cabin in which Texas' Declaration of Independence was ratified. Since the one known Dodson flag was documented as being somewhere else at the time of the siege, the only other real candidate with a lone star on a smaller blue field, seems to be the lone star and stripes. So the possible scenario of the star and stripes flag, if it in fact was present at the Alamo, may be something like this: The flag was captured in the last stages of battle, and, in the heat of passion, several of the capturing party tore it to pieces as a gesture of hatred before cooler-headed Mexican officers arrived to halt its destruction. This still left the New Orleans Greys flag, which in it's own right clearly showed US interference in Mexican affairs, to be presented to the Mexican government as a sign of US interferance. Admittedly, this scenario is tenuous at best, and is only presented as speculation. Sorry for the diversion off topic. Just wanted to briefly address the star and stripes flag. |
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Post by Hiram on Mar 16, 2010 16:55:07 GMT -5
I would cast my vote for the "Lone Star and Stripes" as the unidentified flag that WBT purchased.
Mark, I agree with your reasoning that Travis would be more likely to show the colors reminiscent of the United States than the Mexican States. Though a naturalized Mexican citizen, Travis was a dedicated republican (note his reference in the letter of 24 February addressed not only to the people of Texas but to all Americans in the world, Fellow citizens & compatriots.
I would also note that from 24 February to early on 6 March, the Alamo garrison was under the acting command of Travis. Yes, there were at least 20 former Greys who died on day 13 of the siege, but they were former Greys. Its hard for me to reconcile what I view as a strong C2 of Travis with the banner of the New Orleans Greys being posted on any staff. But again, that's just one person's interpretation of a perplexing question. I'm not precluding the Greys' flag being flown under the command of Travis, like many "Alamo questions," it's simply yet to be definitively resolved.
And no need to apologize for the "diversion." We are discussing Alamo flags, and this is yet another strong thread which hopefully answers some questions, and raises some.
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Post by Kevin Young on Mar 16, 2010 17:10:03 GMT -5
Hiram
One of the early sources of the 1824 flag being used at the Alamo is Potter, who as you know, happened to be in Matamoros when Urrea and company came back. Do you think he may have seen the captured flag mentioned by Urrea? It may have been a leap of faith that he thought it was used at the Alamo as well. Just a thought.
I lean to the star and strips flag as well. I remember taking to Bob Maberry when he was researching his Texas flag book and thought his reasoning made sense.
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Post by elcolorado on Mar 16, 2010 17:37:29 GMT -5
Interesting discussion about the flag.
I'm curious. On the 24th, Travis wrote the flag - what ever it was - waives proudly from the walls. If this flag was something other than the tricolor 2-star, why wouldn't Sanchez-Navarro have put it into his drawing of the Alamo? Surely he would have seen it. Would the defenders have mounted the flag in a inconspicuous location?
If, as we assume, Travis and the garrison were fighting for separation, doesn't it seem odd for Travis to refer to the tricolor as"our flag" if independence was the goal?
Either there was another flag hoisted somewhere within the compound that symbolized separation from Mexico (the stars & stripes?) or Travis was, in fact, referring to the tricolor when he wrote "our flag" (or perhaps Sanchez-Navarro was just employing artistic license).
Glenn
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Post by Hiram on Mar 16, 2010 19:25:52 GMT -5
Hiram One of the early sources of the 1824 flag being used at the Alamo is Potter, who as you know, happened to be in Matamoros when Urrea and company came back. Do you think he may have seen the captured flag mentioned by Urrea? It may have been a leap of faith that he thought it was used at the Alamo as well. Just a thought. I lean to the star and strips flag as well. I remember taking to Bob Maberry when he was researching his Texas flag book and thought his reasoning made sense.
Potter's statement of the garrison's incognizance in relation to independence is correct only in its literal interpretation. With the election of delegates on 1 February, the course was clear, the goal was independence.
I think most historians have chosen to interpret the Potter quote as a figurative description, not a literal one. Being a resident of Matamoros for several years, it seems likely that Potter would have been familiar with the 1824 tricolor, whether he actually laid eyes on it or not.
I do think its practical to assume that more than one insurgent flag made its way back to Mexico in the days and months following the end of the revolution.
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