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Post by Kevin Young on Mar 16, 2009 18:37:17 GMT -5
Not sure that this is the place for this, but thought some of you might find of interest;
Menage de Compania
Reglamento Fenrero 6 de 1833
Mazos de madera
desarmadores
baquetones
ollas derancho
tapaderas
olleros de madera
hachas par len
curchillas
tohallas
cepillos
sacos para menestres
Loose translation (or best shot)
Goods of the Company
wood mallet
gun hammers
ramrods
mess kettles
lids
wood pot
axe for firewood
knifes
towels
brushs
sacks for breadsacks for pottage or vegtable
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Post by garyzaboly on May 14, 2009 16:23:39 GMT -5
The Mexican Army got so ragged in its retreat that sandbag sacks were ordered to be cut up to repair pants and jackets etc.
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Post by marklemon on May 14, 2009 19:23:15 GMT -5
Regarding degradation of uniforms, the march into Texas also must have been quite destructive to their clothing. The Active Militia Battalion of San Luis Potosi was ordered to hand over their dress uniforms to the Permanent Battalions after their arrival in Bexar, leaving them with their fatigue (cotton) uniform jackets. It is an interesting question as to whether he did the same with the other Active Militia Battalions.
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Post by garyzaboly on May 15, 2009 4:27:12 GMT -5
The Activos were rarely as well equipped as the Permanentes. Many in the Guadalajara Battalion even lacked shirts as they marched into Texas. After Santa Anna crushed a number of Activo regiments in Zacatecas in 1835, it was probably an automatic thing for him to dip into their clothing and supplies so that his regulars were better equipped.
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Post by bobdurham on May 15, 2009 19:39:53 GMT -5
"The Active Militia Battalion of San Luis Potosi was ordered to hand over their dress uniforms to the Permanent Battalions after their arrival in Bexar, leaving them with their fatigue (cotton) uniform jackets."
Mark -- do you know if these would have been unbleached cotton uniforms or would they have been blue?
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Post by garyzaboly on May 16, 2009 5:20:36 GMT -5
Cotton fatigues is a reference to white jackets.
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Post by marklemon on May 16, 2009 9:52:38 GMT -5
"The Active Militia Battalion of San Luis Potosi was ordered to hand over their dress uniforms to the Permanent Battalions after their arrival in Bexar, leaving them with their fatigue (cotton) uniform jackets." Mark -- do you know if these would have been unbleached cotton uniforms or would they have been blue? Hi Bob! They would have been the unbleached cotton jackets (without tails). Sort of a dirty white. Mark |
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Post by garyzaboly on May 16, 2009 13:51:40 GMT -5
Once erroneously thought to have been a "tropical" uniform.
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Post by Kevin Young on May 16, 2009 18:40:31 GMT -5
...and they were still wearing them until after the battle of the Coleto.
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Post by garyzaboly on May 17, 2009 11:56:56 GMT -5
And Potter saw white-garbed Mexican troops at Matamoros after the Texas campaign in late 1836, with BLACK accouterment belts. Did he see cazadores? Or were some line troops of Santa Anna's army equipped wiht black instead of white shoulder belts, too?
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Post by tmdreb on May 20, 2009 0:22:47 GMT -5
I've seen someone on another forum claim that the regulations of 1835 or 1836 allowed the use of black for accoutrement belts, but there was no source given for this.
White buff leather was and still is much more expensive than black bridle leather or even waxed flesh. A period remedy for this was to simply paint the flesh side of the leather strap white, but it's still just as easy to dye the grain side black, usually with iron dye, and it's much easier to keep clean.
I wouldn't be surprised if the line battalions had black leather belts rather than white buff. No, I don't think they switched out white for black when changing from their dress to fatigue uniforms unless they were actually on some important parade. That'd be expensive and time consuming to issue two sets of belting to each soldier and expect him to keep up with both.
Period sources seem to disagree on the fabric the fatigue uniforms were made of, mentioning cotton, linen and hemp, but there are plenty of references to white uniforms consisting of a jacket and trousers. We know that in the 1820's and 1840's, these often had red cuffs and collars. Whether this feature was seen in Texas in the 1830's is unknown as far as what I have seen, so the jackets may have been plain.
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Post by garyzaboly on May 20, 2009 6:14:17 GMT -5
I've seen someone on another forum claim that the regulations of 1835 or 1836 allowed the use of black for accoutrement belts, but there was no source given for this. White buff leather was and still is much more expensive than black bridle leather or even waxed flesh. A period remedy for this was to simply paint the flesh side of the leather strap white, but it's still just as easy to dye the grain side black, usually with iron dye, and it's much easier to keep clean. I wouldn't be surprised if the line battalions had black leather belts rather than white buff. No, I don't think they switched out white for black when changing from their dress to fatigue uniforms unless they were actually on some important parade. That'd be expensive and time consuming to issue two sets of belting to each soldier and expect him to keep up with both. Period sources seem to disagree on the fabric the fatigue uniforms were made of, mentioning cotton, linen and hemp, but there are plenty of references to white uniforms consisting of a jacket and trousers. We know that in the 1820's and 1840's, these often had red cuffs and collars. Whether this feature was seen in Texas in the 1830's is unknown as far as what I have seen, so the jackets may have been plain. All good points---and a subject area that's not been explored worth a dang. Among the inventory of Cos' stores in Bexar in 1835 were well over 100 "duck jackets." "Duck" was a strong, thick linen cloth (if more recently it has been made of cotton), and it was lighter than canvas. It was used for everything from laborers' clothing to tents, and was usually white or "unbleached," but sometimes dyed black, brown, blue, gray and olive colors. Also called Russia duck or ravensduck. Its durability made it a logical fatigue wear, and it would have well survived the long march into Texas, far far better than cotton fatigues or wool uniform jackets. |
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Post by marklemon on May 20, 2009 16:39:58 GMT -5
All good points---and a subject area that's not been explored worth a dang. While I'd agree that the results have been sketchy, there are a number of folks, myself included (and I presume yourself), who are deeply immersed in this level of minutiae. So I'd suggest that the problem is not that it's not being explored, but rather that the results have been slim. I and others have seen the listings of "duck jackets" in the inventories, as well as references to them in the list taken upon the army's return to Matamoros in the summer of 36, and a smattering of other references. What needs to happen, though, is someone, probably a native Mexican with connections, who has the access, and desire, to gain entry to the National Museum archives where, I have no doubt, a treasure trove of fascinating data awaits. Barring that, we'll just have to pick over the same meager shreds of evidence here, and continue to search for more... |
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Post by Kevin Young on May 20, 2009 17:40:00 GMT -5
Agreed! It would be nice to be able to get into the Mexican Defense Archives and see what they have in the way of documentation related to the material culture of the army...
I think Steve Hardin will remember this, but someone out in West Texas had a Texas flag that according to family sources was made of cloth taken from Mexican uniforms captured at San Jacinto. If I recall, the white star and bar was not of the same material as the rest of the flag...I think Steve got to see it-I did not. Steve might be able to provide more information...and of course, it could be just one of those things that would be hard to prove...
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Post by tmdreb on May 21, 2009 0:01:28 GMT -5
I do remember hearing about that flag, myself. I asked Dr. Bruce Winders about his impressions of the cloth, since he'd seen it in person. He said the blue was almost black, the red was just an ordinary red, and that the cloth was very thick and dense.
Gary, you mentioned a wool fatigue jacket was issued by the Mexican Army in Blood of Noble Men. I haven't come across any other mention of this, so I'm pretty curious. Would you mind sharing your thoughts on the subject?
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