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Post by stuart on Jul 29, 2007 11:27:53 GMT -5
Rather than let the Potter/Ruiz thread wander too far off, we might as well start a new one.
On March 28, 1837 theTelegraph and Texas Register, Columbia, printed over the name of Lt. Col. John [Juan] N. Seguin, the following detailed account of the military funeral accorded the remains of the martyrs of the Alamo:
"In conformity with an order from the general commanding the army at headquarters, Col. Seguin, with his command stationed at Bexar, paid his honors of war to the remains of the heroes of the Alamo; the ashes were found in three places, the two smallest heaps were carefully collected, placed in a coffin neatly covered with black, and having the names of Travis, Bowie and Crockett, engraved on the inside lid, and carried to Bexar and placed in the parish church, where the Texian flag, a rifle and a sword were laid upon it for the purpose of being accompanied by the procession, which was formed at 3 o'clock on the 25th day of February; the honors to be paid were announced in orders of the evening previous, and by the tolling knell from day-break to the hour of interment; at 4 o'clock the procession moved from the church in Bexar, in the following order: "Field officers; staff officers; civil authorities; clergy military not attached to corps, and others. Mourners and relatives; music; battalion; citizens.
"The procession then passed through the principal street of the city, crossed the river, passed through the principal avenue on the other side, and halted at the place where the first ashes had been gathered; the coffin was then placed upon the spot, and three volleys of musketry were discharged by one of the companies; the procession then moved on to the second spot, whence part of the ashes in the coffin had been taken, where the same honors were paid; the procession then proceeded to principal spot, and place of interment, where the grave had been prepared, the coffin had been placed on the principal heap of ashes..."
In other words, as I suspected he took the remains into the church, and after the service had them properly buried in what became the peach orchard.
What complicates things is his 1889 letter in which he instead describes burying them in a casket inside the church. This was used as the basis for identifying remains later discovered there as being Alamo defenders, but as I understand it those remains included recognisable skulls as well as fragments of uniforms
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Post by Allen Wiener on Jul 30, 2007 9:25:12 GMT -5
Stuart, how do we know that the "principal spot and place of interment" are in the peach orchard? Is this anywhere near the location of the current marker that is supposed to be one of the funeral pyre locations? Are the latter remains you mentioned (including skulls and uniform fragments) the ones currently located in San Fernando Cathedral?
Thanks for the backround and clarification.
AW
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Post by stuart on Jul 30, 2007 10:56:13 GMT -5
I'll check when I get back from the office, but as I remember it Potter was the one who identified the burial site as a peach orchard.
as for the remains in San Fernando, go to the Alamo de Parras site and type BURIALS into the search engine. This will throw up a couple of articles which you need to read (the links didn't work when I tried to post them here)
Basically however, the remains were found when someone followed Seguin's 1889 account of burying the ashes inside the church - quite at odds with his official report from 1837 quoted above. They were assumed to be those of the defenders on that basis alone. I also understand from those articles that not only did they include recognisable skull fragments, bits of uniforms etc. but there seems to be some doubt as to whether they had been cremated - one of the tests which was proposed was to confirm whether they had indeed been burned.
Sounds dubious to me. Rick Range and some of the Alamo Decendents people are pressing for DNA testing, although I understand the Crocketts are refusing to sign the papers.
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Post by stuart on Jul 30, 2007 11:59:43 GMT -5
Yeah, thought so, it was Potter:
"On the 25th of February, 1837, the bones and ashes of the defenders were, by order of General Houston, collected as well as could then be done, for burial by Colonel Seguin, then in command at San Antonio. The bones were placed in a large coffin, which,together with the gathered ashes, was interred with military honors. The place of burial was a peach orchard then outside of the Alamo village, and a few hundred yards from the fort. When I was last there in 1861, it was still large inclosed open lot, though surrounded by the suburb which had there grown up, but the rude landmarks which had once pointed out the place of sepulture [sic] had long since disappeared. Diligent search might then have found it, but it is now densely built over, and its identity is irrecoverably lost."
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Post by Allen Wiener on Jul 30, 2007 15:10:56 GMT -5
Thanks Stuart; the two articles you mentioned are interesting and, at least to me, suggest that it is unlikely that the remains are of any Alamo defenders. I'm afraid that the remains are probably lost forever.
Do you have any idea why it was thougt that a funeral pyre was located on the present site of the cenotaph?
AW
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Post by marklemon on Jul 30, 2007 15:46:05 GMT -5
Herbert Uecker, in his 2001 book, "The Archaeology of the Alamo" mentions that in 1995, a large, 7 inch thick layer of ash was found at "battle level" during a dig which had started out trying to find the second Alamo well. This layer of ash and bone fragments was located equidistant from the southwest corner of the Convento, and the northeast corner of the Low Barrack. He strongly suggests that it may have been one of the pyre sites: "Based on the known records regarding the pyres of the Alamo defenders and the archaeological findings of the Alamo Wells Project, a strong, but not conclusive, argument can be made that the ashes found in 1995 are some of the Texian Alamo defenders' last remains..."
This certainly interesting, but I still cannot uderstand why an army which intended to stay and garrison the Alamo would then burn any number of bodies inside the fort, an act which would then bring about any number of unpleasant after effects, such as horrible odors, bad sanitation, etc. They just wouldn't want to have a bunch of charred bodies laying around inside their fortress, unless, of course, the idea was to first burn, then remove the remains, but this to me seems unlikely.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Jul 30, 2007 19:05:36 GMT -5
In other words, as I suspected he took the remains into the church, and after the service had them properly buried in what became the peach orchard. You have made a vast leap from fact to surmise. The peach orchard (by Alamo history tradition -- and I'm not sure why) was very specifically to the east of the Alamo, about where the firehouse on Bonham Street stands. This is why George Nelson placed it in that location in his paintings. Of course, that may not be correct, but that location is what I have always heard. (Not saying much, is it?) Assuming this peace orchard location to be correct, it places one of the funeral pyres in the general vacinity where Sesma's men ran down those defenders making the breakout attempt, which makes sense. My scenario is that the two pyres at the Alameda were deliberately placed there to flank the main road from Gonzales so all would see them for a long time. It would be, as suggested above, ridiculous to burn the bodies in the plaza of the Alamo -- the barracks where many soldados would be living for months perhaps. These bodies were carted to the Alameda. The bodies outside the fort were already some distance away and could be pyred on site. Seguin's report to Houston said very clearly that the coffin was taken first to one pyre, then to a second pyre and then to the third, where it was interred. While not conclusive, geography suggests crossing the Potrero St. footbridge, proceeding up to the nearest pyres first -- those flanking the Alameda -- thence to the third pyre at the peach orchard east of the Alamo. The only hole I can knock in this scenario is that Seguin referred to this third location as the "prinipal" heap of ashes. It doesn't make sense that this pyre to the east -- with the sixty plus men from the breakout attempt -- would be larger that the 70-foot-long pyre at the Alameda, and then be totally forgotten by all Bexarenos and thus not included in the later accounts. So.... perhaps Seguin's processional went to the farthest one first in order to end up at a grave site at the nearest one. But then this location would have been right in the middle of an area quite well travelled and lived in. By the 1840's, there were houses and businesses in the Alameda already. Why would the grave have continued in such obscurity when so centrally located? No, it still makes more sense to me that it was waaaaayyyyy out there east of the Alamo where there was no *urbanization* for several decades -- not until the 1860's. By then, the grave could have become obscured by the elements. Can't find it now, but I did read a second-hand account which said that skeletons had been found when excavating for the firehouse in the early 20th. Century. |
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Post by stuart on Jul 31, 2007 0:47:21 GMT -5
I'm not sure where the "vast leap from fact to surmise" comes in Rich. In my initial posting I was confirming what I'd suggested on the other thread; that although Seguin took a casket of ashes into the church for a service, he then by his 1837 account took it back outside again for burial at a spot Potter later referred to as a peach orchard.
Otherwise we seem pretty well agreed that whatever that thick layer of ash was in the middle of the plaza it wasn't a funeral pyre - my guess would be it was stores and other consumables heaped up and burned when the Mexican army pulled out.
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Post by TRK on Jul 31, 2007 7:13:34 GMT -5
Otherwise we seem pretty well agreed that whatever that thick layer of ash was in the middle of the plaza it wasn't a funeral pyre - my guess would be it was stores and other consumables heaped up and burned when the Mexican army pulled out. You beat me to it. Possibly the consumables included some or all of the pickets that Andrade's troops burned, according to Dr. Barnard's journal. |
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Post by Allen Wiener on Jul 31, 2007 8:12:32 GMT -5
This is very interesting to me. The fire house was between my hotel and the Alamo when I last visited and I walked past that sight every day on my way to the shrine. Next time, I'll show a little more respect when I go by.
Since we've been talking about a San Antonio walking tour, it would be nice to include some explanation of the fate of the Alamo defenders' remains, including the status of the casket in the San Fernando Church, the likely sites of the pyres, the memorial that is now on the bridge on Commerce Street, the location of the Cenotaph and, of course, the fire house where the peach orchard stood.
AW
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Post by Herb on Jul 31, 2007 9:36:51 GMT -5
Herbert Uecker, in his 2001 book, "The Archaeology of the Alamo" mentions that in 1995, a large, 7 inch thick layer of ash was found at "battle level" during a dig which had started out trying to find the second Alamo well. This layer of ash and bone fragments was located equidistant from the southwest corner of the Convento, and the northeast corner of the Low Barrack. It sounds like it was just outside the kitchen. Which I suspect was where the cattle were butchered and possibly prepared. Throw in Stuart and Tom's theory of a centralized "burn pile" when Andrade destroyed the fortifications, makes a lot more sense to me, for the reasons you state, then a funeral pyre in the middle of a garrison site. |
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Post by TRK on Jul 31, 2007 10:00:15 GMT -5
Since we've been talking about a San Antonio walking tour, it would be nice to include some explanation of the fate of the Alamo defenders' remains, including the status of the casket in the San Fernando Church, the likely sites of the pyres, the memorial that is now on the bridge on Commerce Street, the location of the Cenotaph and, of course, the fire house where the peach orchard stood. Some of this stuff is already covered, to greater or lesser extent, in the walking tour, but these topics could certainly stand additional commentary. If there's anything you'd like to add to what's already in there concerning possible pyre sites (or anything else on the tour), Allen, we'd be glad to insert it in the document. |
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Post by Allen Wiener on Jul 31, 2007 13:57:46 GMT -5
Oops; I should have checked before making that suggestion. The Walking Tour thread has grown considerably and is very impressive. I plan to print it out and take it with me on my next visit to Bexar. I think the information on the remains is adequate. If the peach orchard site is pretty definitely where the fire house is now, that could be mentioned as the possible place on interment.
AW
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Post by stough on Sept 26, 2010 16:39:19 GMT -5
I think the largest heap of ashes WOULD have been inside the alamo. To me this is the most logical place for them.
In Ruiz's account he is specific in how this was done. It would make sense, considering the lack of asistance he recieved that he stack them in the most convienient geographical location. This would be inside the fort. (as well as the two smaller stacks outside the fort).
Also, isn't there mention of the grease spots that were left from the fires? Who wrote that?
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