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Jacales
Jun 22, 2008 15:44:29 GMT -5
Post by stuart on Jun 22, 2008 15:44:29 GMT -5
In both his excellent book and on other threads here Mark has interpreted the "stockading" of the Long Barracks extenstion as beinf Jameson's clumsy way of describing their being constructed as jacales; walls formed of upright posts.
However, following my visit to the San Jacinto Symposium earlier this year I was sent a copy of a splendid study of a whole raft of historic sites and buildings along the border, including numerous photographs of jacales. In every case the only upright posts were used for framing and for retaining the horizontal logs forming the walls - which could not be described as stockading.
Any comments?
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Jacales
Jun 22, 2008 17:38:14 GMT -5
Post by TRK on Jun 22, 2008 17:38:14 GMT -5
I'm not disputing the type of construction you're describing, Stuart, but by "along the border," are you saying the Rio Grande Valley? And how period-specific were the photos of jacales of horizontal-log construction? Early-to-mid-19th century? I've also seen plenty of primary pictorial evidence for vertical-log or -picket jacal construction in the mid-19th century. Mary Maverick's published memoirs contain a circa-1850s photo of a San Antonio jacal, and without digging out my copy, I'm pretty sure it's constructed of vertical posts set into the ground. The Amon Carter Museum has some eyewitness watercolor sketches by James G. Benton made around 1850. On this first page, see the sketch of the jacal at the top of the menu: vertical posts. www.cartermuseum.org/books/encountering/art/jb2.htmOn the following webpage, enlarge the top two pictures in the menu. In the top sketch, the jacal on the left seems to be of horizontal-post construction, and the other of vertical posts. In the sketch that's second from the top, the jacales are again of vertical posts. www.cartermuseum.org/books/encountering/art/jb3.htmI'll have to go digging, but I'm quite sure that the works of mid-19th century central-Texas artists such as Theodore Gentilz and Hermann Lungkwitz show jacales with vertical-post construction. Again, I don't have evidence in hand, yet, but I'm sure there are eyewitness written descriptions of jacales specifically in San Antonio or central Texas of vertical-post design.
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Jacales
Jun 22, 2008 19:30:13 GMT -5
Post by marklemon on Jun 22, 2008 19:30:13 GMT -5
Without exception, every drawing, painting, sketch, and (later) photograph of jacales in the San Antonio vicinity I have ever seen depicts the overwhelmingly greater portion of the jacale as consisting of a series of vertical posts, sunk side by side in the ground. When Jameson calls the area in question "dobe (adobe) houses picketed all around as in B.W. (Breastworks, ie: the palisade) my best interpretation of this is basically what I depicted in the book, that is, ruined adobe structures repaired and buttressed by the traditional (vertical) jacale palisading.
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Jacales
Jun 23, 2008 2:44:02 GMT -5
Post by stuart on Jun 23, 2008 2:44:02 GMT -5
I'm not disputing the type of construction you're describing, Stuart, but by "along the border," are you saying the Rio Grande Valley? Rio Grande Valley indeed. I've seen other reconstructions of jacales with vertical posts before, eg: Gary Zaboly. What struck me about these photographs was that all of them featured the horizontal post construction
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Jacales
Jun 23, 2008 22:40:09 GMT -5
Post by marklemon on Jun 23, 2008 22:40:09 GMT -5
It's always helpful to consult the original data on such things. Jameson, who obviously wasn't familiar with, or disposed to use, the word "jacale," or even, for that matter, "palisade," (so much for his engineering knowledge) seemed to be struggling to describe this area of the mission. Why else would he go through the torturous convoluted exercise in phraseology, viz: "Dobe houses picketed all around as in B.W.?" We know that the "B.W." he refers to was the breastwork, or palisade, and that it consisted of vertical posts set into the ground in palisado fashion. This we know from the archeology. So this must be our baseline, or reference point in decifering what Jameson says. The other clue is the word "picketed." This by definition means "to fence with upright pointed stakes." Clearly, he is saying to us (although he makes us work to understand him) that the adobe houses in this sector have been shored up with, or reinforced by vertical palisado construction.
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Jacales
Jun 24, 2008 6:25:57 GMT -5
Post by stuart on Jun 24, 2008 6:25:57 GMT -5
It's always helpful to consult the original data on such things. Jameson, who obviously wasn't familiar with, or disposed to use, the word "jacale," or even, for that matter, "palisade," (so much for his engineering knowledge) seemed to be struggling to describe this area of the mission. Why else would he go through the torturous convoluted exercise in phraseology, viz: "Dobe houses picketed all around as in B.W.?" We know that the "B.W." he refers to was the breastwork, or palisade, and that it consisted of vertical posts set into the ground in palisado fashion. This we know from the archeology. So this must be our baseline, or reference point in decifering what Jameson says. The other clue is the word "picketed." This by definition means "to fence with upright pointed stakes." Clearly, he is saying to us (although he makes us work to understand him) that the adobe houses in this sector have been shored up with, or reinforced by vertical palisado construction. I think I’m happier with this last interpretation than the notion that Jameson was just groping for words to describe jacales. Your model suggests that this area was very vulnerable and had I believe been shot at by the Texian artillery while Cos was in residence. Could Jameson actually mean exactly what he says and that the adobe walled structures running north from the convento were reinforced by external stockading (and an earth bank as you depict) to protect them from artillery fire and to provide a proper parapet for riflemen on the roofs? The way he refers to them as "Dobe houses picketed all around as in B.W." (my emphasis) clearly seems to indicate he is talking not about the original structure (whether jacale or adobe brick) but an addition to it.
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Jacales
Jun 24, 2008 17:27:26 GMT -5
Post by marklemon on Jun 24, 2008 17:27:26 GMT -5
Stuart, I might buy the interpretation you propose about external stockading, but see no trace in Jameson's words to suggest that there is an internal banquette, or wooden parapet. He simply does not say a word about this. And in my opinion, we should not engage in interpolating new theoretical "facts" from a statement which implies nothing of the kind, just because it makes sense that this or that feature should be there. While, in a perfect world, where time, manpower, and materials are not a factor, we'd surely place this feature there, the reality of the situation was that the Mexicans never had time to complete the defensive works, and the Texians, while apparently doing more than previously supposed, never did either, for reasons of their own. And, to be sure, this was not the only vulnerable wall in the compound. There were a number of areas along the walls where banquettes were required in order to conform to the dictates of military engineering , but not built. Mark
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Jacales
Jun 24, 2008 21:28:35 GMT -5
Post by Rich Curilla on Jun 24, 2008 21:28:35 GMT -5
It's always helpful to consult the original data on such things. Jameson, who obviously wasn't familiar with, or disposed to use, the word "jacale," or even, for that matter, "palisade," (so much for his engineering knowledge) seemed to be struggling to describe this area of the mission. Why else would he go through the torturous convoluted exercise in phraseology, viz: "Dobe houses picketed all around as in B.W.?" We know that the "B.W." he refers to was the breastwork, or palisade, and that it consisted of vertical posts set into the ground in palisado fashion. This we know from the archeology. So this must be our baseline, or reference point in decifering what Jameson says. Mark, I just don't agree with you on your interpretation of these structures or your baseline reference point. Part of the problem may be the source you are using for Jameson's description. If it is Nelson, there are inaccuracies and deletions. I just checked my copy of Jenkins' Papers of the Texas Revolution, Vol. 4 (page 60), for a more accurate printing of Jameson. Compare it to Nelson's careless entries. For item "H" in Jameson's index to his plat, he says, "Soldiers quarters built up of doby houses and picketed all round as letter B." In "letter B," he says, "Temporary redoubts of stakes on end and rocks and dirt between, the long one is in front of the house in which Col. Mendoza now lies wounded." Clearly, he is saying to us (although he makes us work to understand him) that the adobe houses in this sector have been shored up with, or reinforced by vertical palisado construction. Clearly, he is saying to us that these houses are fortified with the same field fortification technique he described for the redoubts. The "breastwork" as in the palisade "B.W." is not a part of his description, according to Jenkins' copy of the letter. In addition, in "letter B," he is describing "redoubts" (plural) not a single redoubt. He must have had several drawn on his original plat (God render us the plat!) in several locales around the inside of the fort. This is additionally supported by his next statement, "the long one is in front of the house in which Col. Mendoza now lies wounded." Note, this suggests a redoubt other than the one inside the main gate. Since Jameson is referring to all this when he says, "and picketed all round as letter B," he cannot be talking about how the walls of the houses were built, but rather the way they were additionally protected by outside breastworks. If you still feel that "picketed all round" doesn't make sense with my interpretation because these breastworks would not be on all sides, then I would have to counter by saying that the houses in your model are only picketed on one side (the west side) with the east wall being stone and the partition walls being adobe. For me, that doesn't inform the prase, "picketed all around." To me, "picketed all round" means all around the outside of the fort along the houses' east walls and the north wall. Perhaps the outer wall was adobe and not stone here as in your model. Jameson also uses the phrase "pickets all around" in letter I. He says, "Strong stone walls without pickets all around." [Nelson leaves out the word "all."] If you contend that, for the houses, "pickets all round" means the walls of the houses were built of pickets, then how do you explain the same phrase when it refers to a single curtain wall? My conclusion is that "built up of doby houses and picketed all round as letter B" does, as Stuart says, mean "exactly what he says." The houses are of adobe brick and reinforced on the outside of the fort "all round" with a structure similar to the redoubts he describes. I do not see this as an ambiguous or "convoluted" statement. Seems like precise description to me.
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Jacales
Jun 24, 2008 21:47:22 GMT -5
Post by Rich Curilla on Jun 24, 2008 21:47:22 GMT -5
And Stuart....
I have seen many examples in primary depictions of Jacales that Jacal construction was usually verticle palisades in Spanish colonial San Antonio de Bexar.
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Jacales
Jun 25, 2008 0:24:28 GMT -5
Post by marklemon on Jun 25, 2008 0:24:28 GMT -5
Rich, Reading my last post to Stuart, you'll see that I allowed that what you are proposing, ie: that the outer wall of the Long Barrack northern extension may have been reinforced much like the north wall exterior was. I still am far, far from convinced of this, but I'll allow it as a possibility. What I cannot agree to, is a subsequent leap of logic, to then place a banquette, or wooden firing platform, atop, or behind this structure. There just is no evidence of it whatsoever. These houses were fragile, and disappeared very soon after the battle. They most likely would not have supported the weight of such a structure atop them. If, as Stuart suggests, a type of defensive "bunker" was built inside of them (as he interprets the interior ditches at this point) neither Sanchez Navarro, nor de la Pena mention it. Instead, they simply refer to these structures having the interior ditch, nothing more. All contemporary sources depict them simply as soldiers' berthing. Mark
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Jacales
Jun 25, 2008 1:19:45 GMT -5
Post by stuart on Jun 25, 2008 1:19:45 GMT -5
We seem to be talking at slightly cross purposes here Mark. What Rich and I are suggesting is that Jameson was describing the addition of an outer "skin" of pickets or palisading covering the more vulnerable adobe walls. I agree with Rich that the superior transcript he quotes is pretty unambiguous on this.
The supposed "banquette" you refer to in my post is the unfinished(?) bank of dirt you yourself depict on p49 on the outside. As for the parapet it simply seems logical to me that if anyone was going to the trouble of adding that outer palisading it would be sensible for it to be high enough to cover anyone firing from the roof. I know that your model shows this particular range of buildings to be thatched but assume this is predicated on the assumption that they were jacales rather than the adobe structures described by Jameson.
Your point that the state of the buildings was such that they disappeared pretty quickly afterwards does not necessarily support their being jacales either. They certainly weren't as solid as the stone houses which survived, but the very fact of their being palisaded means that they will have been torn down before the Mexican army moved out.
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Jacales
Jun 25, 2008 17:17:07 GMT -5
Post by marklemon on Jun 25, 2008 17:17:07 GMT -5
Well, I suppose I'm not doing a very good job of speaking clearly......anyway, for the third time now, I'll repeat that the northern extension wall may have had, like the north wall, it's own outer skin of palisade..But I'd stop well short of stating that Jameson's wording is "pretty unambiguous" on the matter. Otherwise, if it was so very clear, historians and artists through the generations would have shown this feature with no qualms or questions. But, as of this writing, literally NO historian or artist has, to my knowledge, proposed, or depicted this. Of course, that does not mean it didn't exist, just that it is not "pretty unambiguous." On the contrary, it is very ambiguous. Neither Sanchez-Navarro, nor Labastida , the only two known contemporary depictions of the place, show this feature, and nowhere in the written record does it show up (other than that certain interpretation of Jameson.) So, while the palisading on the exterior of this wall may have existed, at this time, there is just not enough data to state that it did. "May have," and "perhaps" are about the strongest terms we should use.
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Jacales
Jun 25, 2008 18:54:14 GMT -5
Post by Allen Wiener on Jun 25, 2008 18:54:14 GMT -5
Not being familar with the documents, this question may sound inane, but was Jameson describing features already in place when he entered the Alamo, or was he describing improvements that he thought were necessary?
AW
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Jacales
Jun 25, 2008 19:36:30 GMT -5
Post by marklemon on Jun 25, 2008 19:36:30 GMT -5
He was describing both. If my memory serves, the ones he drew in red ink were the proposed changes, and the ones drawn in black ink were the ones already in place. The northern extension, however, was not depicted as any sort of defensive work, at least, not in the second-generation map, and the key to it.
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Jacales
Jun 25, 2008 19:37:35 GMT -5
Post by Rich Curilla on Jun 25, 2008 19:37:35 GMT -5
What I cannot agree to, is a subsequent leap of logic, to then place a banquette, or wooden firing platform, atop, or behind this structure. There just is no evidence of it whatsoever. But I am not suggesting this. All I am saying is what I believe Jameson is saying. That the east side of the buildings was lined with "stakes on end and rocks and dirt between." This wrapped around the north end to protect the weak houses. LaBastida depicts an "exterior ditch" doing exactly this. You have on your model, perhaps correctly, presented this as a ditch to supply dirt for the earth embankment against the northeast corner (an embankment not depicted by LaBastida) that begins to complete Sanchez-Navarro's reinforcement cribbing (also not shown by LaBastida). This interpretation makes sense to me, but isn't it still a "perhaps?" For the sake of argument, I contend that LaBastida was depicting (rather ambiguously) the same detail that Jameson was describing but without the pickets, just as he failed to depict Sanchez-Navarro/de la Pena's north wall cribbing. Again I will point out that I am saying nothing about a palisade parapet atop the east wall buildings, just a picketed protection outside a weak (perhaps adobe) east wall. This could have been what LaBastida was showing and what Jameson was referring to. Since you do concede the possibility, then doesn't that mean that you also concede the possibility that the "doby" structures were just that -- adobe -- and not palisade jacal construction? Mark, I am by no means trying to prove you wrong. I'm only finding that, even after your fine conjecture, Jameson's wording still means the same to me that it always has.
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