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Post by Jim Boylston on May 29, 2007 14:38:19 GMT -5
Mark Lemon's article in the June '07 Alamo Journal makes a compelling case for the location of the Alsbury sisters at the time of the Alamo battle. Though Mark doesn't mention it in his article, I think his diagram of the Casteneda house lends even more credence to the north room of the house being Ruiz's "fortin", where the body of Crockett was found. I don't want to give away too much, but I'm looking forward to comments when everyone recieves this latest issue. Jim
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Post by stuart on Jun 8, 2007 13:56:57 GMT -5
Well, the carrier pigeon finally made it and yes what a splendid article. However...
I have to disagree very strongly that the Alsbury account supports the suggestion that the "fort" where Crockett's body was found was the gun position which she had to thread.
Plainly it was just a cramped little former room and only the fact it no longer had a roof(?) would have prevented it being described as such. In the circumstances Alsbury can be forgiven for not having noticed Crockett's body if it actually was lying there, but structurally the gun position was still a part of the house and I really can't see it being described as "a fort". We could argue semantics on this one, but its not the most obvious way to describe this particular position, unlike the Fortin de Condelle which certainly was a recognisable "fort" - and moreover fits Ruiz description of it being to the west of where Travis lay
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Post by Allen Wiener on Jun 8, 2007 15:44:20 GMT -5
I wish we had a better idea of how large the rooms were. In Mark's sketch, it looks only about large enough to house the cannon and, presumably, a gun crew.
When you refer to the Fortin de Condelle (I'm not up on these terms) do you mean the gun platform/emplacement in the extreme northwest corner? That was clearly a west of Travis.
Mark's article is great and shows how much more detail is yet to be seen regarding the compound. I never thought of the rooms along the walls as "houses," which had a number of rooms, but I guess that's what they were.
Again, I wonder how much of the work fortifying the Alamo was done by Cos, including this gun emplacement.
AW
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Post by stuart on Jun 8, 2007 16:11:55 GMT -5
That's the one, and its also worth pointing out once again that although the question is complicated as always by the fact that we only have somebody's translation of what Ruiz supposedly said (and so can't be 100% sure of what we have), Reuben Potter got the same story from him and wrote of the fort where Crockett was found being at a height, which would not only fit with the Fortin de Condelle, but simultaneously rule out the gun position described by Alsbury as it was plainly at ground level.
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Post by Jim Boylston on Jun 8, 2007 17:34:16 GMT -5
I must have missed the reference to height in Potter, Stuart. I'm not home, so I'm nowhere near my library. Can you post a quote from the Potter reference? Thanks. Jim
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Post by stuart on Jun 8, 2007 17:57:12 GMT -5
Hansen p702-703
Final para on the first page:
"I cannot locate this gun with certainty, but it was probably the twelve pound carronade which fired over the centre of the west wall from a high commanding position [my emphasis] ... According to Mr Ruiz... the body of Crockett was found in the west battery just referred to"
Now so far as my argument goes its a bit awkward at first glance that he clearly refers to the centre of the west wall, but he's also equally unambiguous in stating that it was firing from "a high commanding position", which the Alsbury gun certainly wasn't. Potter does however admit to a degree of uncertainty and if you scroll back to the beginning of the paragraph the gun in question is again very unambiguously quoted by Potter as being "on a high platform".
The way I read the paragraph as a whole is that Potter is describing the damage done by this gun on the high platform, and then says Ruiz told him Crockett's body was found there. The bit about the carronade is an unsuccessful interpolation which quite misleadingly moves Crockett from the high platform (Fortin de Condelle) to the ground level gunnade position on Alsbury's doorstep.
This reading is certainly consistent with Ruiz' original testimony that Crockett's body was in a fort to the west of Travis, rather than in a house on the west wall.
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Post by Jim Boylston on Jun 8, 2007 18:12:32 GMT -5
I see your point, but man, it's still ambiguous. Not only is Potter internally contradictory now (high platform and center of the wall), but we still have no way of knowing for sure the original context of "small fort". Perhaps a room with walls, no ceiling and a cannon might constitute a fort to Ruiz, or perhaps he was mistranslated. The sticky wicket in the equation is that he refers to Travis's body as being on a "battery" (I think, bear with me, I'm stuck in an airport on a flight delay). Why would he use a different expression to refer to a near identical setting for Crockett's position? Possible translation error, but not as likely IMHO. Of course we're splitting hairs, but that's the way we roll. Jim
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Post by stuart on Jun 9, 2007 6:58:37 GMT -5
Perfectly true but unless you go in for the non-contextualised hair-splitting practised by TRL the meaning of the paragraph taken as a whole is pretty straightforward.
Potter, citing his witnesses, describes the damage done by a gun on a high platform and then says that Ruiz told him Crockett's body was discovered on the same position.
The confusing bit is that he inserts into the middle of that otherwise straightforward account a conjecture of his own that the gun in question may have been the gunnade. Take out that otherwise unsupported (and quite contradictory) speculation and the rest of its straightforward enough, as is Ruiz' original statement.
The difference between a "battery" and a "fort", which in this case I'm taking to be the Fortin de Condelle is that a battery is a collection of two or more guns, which can as in this case be sited in an open position. The Fortin de Condelkle on the other hand was a self contained position, in effect a small tower ("high platform")
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Post by Jim Boylston on Jun 9, 2007 7:36:42 GMT -5
Agreed, but my point is that Ruiz referred to the Fortin de Teran (Travis's position) as a "battery", so it seems logical he would have used the same language if he was referring to the Fortin de Condelle, a similar position. Instead, he seemingly defined it differently...as a "small fort". Why the change? I take your point about the elevation, but I don't know if more weight should be given the description of the gun being in a high position when Potter also states flatly that the position was toward the center of the west wall. It's a contradiction. This position might be clarified by comparing it to the report in Graham's Magazine cited by Zaboly in "Blood of Noble Men", page 185 (and illustrated on page 184). I say "clarified" rather than corroborated allowing for the possibility that the guide may have been Ruiz or may have been informed by Ruiz. Jim
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Post by stuart on Jun 9, 2007 9:54:35 GMT -5
No I have to disagree. Remember that the naming of the various positions by Cos' men was a pretty standard military procedure to uniquely identify each one irrespective of character.
Viewing them, perhaps for the first time, Ruiz would have seen two very different structures; a battery erected on the north wall and a quite separate, higher gun platform on the NW corner.
Now I agree that the unnamed guide, (who no doubt first paused for dramatic effect) exclaimed that a "room" on the west wall which fits the description of both the gun position described by Alsbury and the gunnade position referred to by Potter was where Crockett's body was found, but as I said above that particular passage by Potter is quite clearly about the gun mounted up on the Fortin de Condelle - where he conjectures Crockett either commanded or was posted as a sharpshooter. Now although real snipers are actually taught to get as low as possible (in the British Army anyway), in the popular imagination sharpshooters are invariably to be found high up in trees, on church towers and other elevated positions, not down low and sharing a cramped little room with a cannon. This is the final clue which I reckon resolves any ambiguity in Potter's narrative as to whether he was saying Crockett was found up there, or whether he was low down by the gunnade.
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Post by Jim Boylston on Jun 9, 2007 10:45:20 GMT -5
This seems too further complicate things, though. If Potter assumed Crockett was a sharpshooter, wouldn't Potter, a man with a military background, have positioned Crockett in the lower of the two positions? Perhaps this is a question we could pose to Mark or Rich, but how mich higher do you envision the NW position to have been than the battery on the north? I'd never pictured them as being all that different. Jim
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Post by stuart on Jun 9, 2007 11:13:01 GMT -5
Doesn't complicate it all. I'll refine my comment about sharpshooting... In modern sniping the idea is to get down low; at that time the obvious place for a sharpshooter is a commanding position cf. the famous Winslow Homer illustration of a civil war sharpshooter, and of course the story about the guy who got Ben Milam being in the tower of the San Fernando church.
The point here is that Potter's reference to the possibility of him being posted by the gun as a sharpshooter clearly points to the "high platform" of the Fortin de Condelle rather than the ground-level position on Alsbury's doorstep.
As to the relative heights of the "battery" where Travis got his, and the Fortin de Condelle, I don't know. They may not have been so very different, or the fortin could have been slightly higher. The important difference is that the battery was an open position firing over or through the northern parapet, while the Fortin was a self-contained position set into the walls of the (former) northernmost room and so quite different in character, hence Ruiz' describing them in quite different terms
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Post by Jim Boylston on Jun 9, 2007 11:31:05 GMT -5
I follow your logic now. Still not sure I agree with you, but I see where you're coming from. Jim
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Post by marklemon on Jun 9, 2007 13:41:08 GMT -5
This seems too further complicate things, though. If Potter assumed Crockett was a sharpshooter, wouldn't Potter, a man with a military background, have positioned Crockett in the lower of the two positions? Perhaps this is a question we could pose to Mark or Rich, but how mich higher do you envision the NW position to have been than the battery on the north? I'd never pictured them as being all that different. Jim Both emplacements, Condelle, and Teran, were essentially the same height, according to all the data available. They were set on platforms (one free-standing-Teran, and the other built onto fill in the northern Castaneda room-Condelle) which both were about 8.5 feet in height. Interestingly, they were built not quite so high as originally intended, possibly due to the encroachment of the Texans, or perhaps due to the lack of additional rubble or earth to fill them in the available time. Both were embrasured positions, and neither fired over the walls, but rather through them. Don't know what this does to the discussion here, but there it is.... Mark
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Post by Jim Boylston on Jun 9, 2007 13:44:43 GMT -5
Care to weigh in on your interpretation of Ruiz, Mark? Jim
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