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Post by Jim Boylston on May 25, 2007 12:15:23 GMT -5
While on the raod I picked up a few of the Osprey "Essential History" titles, including the one on the Texas Revolution by Alan Huffines. I notice that Huffines accepts the three day truce as fact. Unfortunately, the book isn't heavily footnoted, so there's not much in the way of commentary. I found an error, too, that's probably an editor's mistake. The Chapman portrait of Crockett is credited to Gilbert Stuart. Jim
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Post by TRK on May 25, 2007 15:05:35 GMT -5
Osprey has a series of books called "Fortress" that highlights the architecture and other features of various famous forts throughout history. I'm surprised some enterprising writer hasn't snagged a contract with Osprey for a book on the Alamo as a fortress.
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Post by Jim Boylston on May 25, 2007 17:10:59 GMT -5
I saw one on forts in the Southwest, and I think the Alamo was included. jim
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Post by Allen Wiener on May 25, 2007 18:09:47 GMT -5
The only original source for the 3-day amnesty that I can find is in Enrique Esparza's 1907 interview. That is the source that Davis cites and so do Roberts and Olson in "A Line in the Sand." I checked both of Huffines books, the Osprey and "Blood of Noble Men," which goes into considerably more detail and is footnoted, but leaves out the source of the story.
Davis's footnote acknowledges that there are problems accepting Esparza's story, but he mentions an article by Stephen L. Hardin titled "Efficient in the Cause" (in Poyo, Tejano Journey, a book he does not include in his bibliography and which I've never heard of. He says that Hardin makes a persuasive case for Esparza being essentially correct about the Tejanos leaving, including Menchaca, Bowie's old friend, which casts doubt on Menchaca's claim to have left the fort prior to the siege.
Given the general evacuation of most Tejanos (if this entire thing is true; none of the Mexican memoirs or diaries mentions it; Santa Anna later made note of it, but not at the time), I wonder if this is what motivated Travis's claim that only a few Tejanos were loyal to him.
AW
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Post by Jim Boylston on May 25, 2007 19:06:38 GMT -5
I think Esparza is mostly bunk, and put little to no faith in any of his interviews. They're as farfetched as Candelaria's in my opinion. Jim
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Post by Herb on May 25, 2007 20:23:05 GMT -5
I wouldn't go quite that far, but it doesn't make too much sense to me, to take an old man's memories from when he was a little boy, without collaboration, as uncontested fact!
We just went through the 3 day truce exercise in another thread, and only identified one day iirc, that there is no first hand account of any firing: Feb 29th. Now, just possibly the truce went into effect at noon on the 28th and ended at noon on the 1st or some such. But, I'm highly desirous to see some other proof before accepting this.
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Post by Jim Boylston on May 25, 2007 21:06:05 GMT -5
It seems to me that Almonte would have mentioned something about this. As far as Esparza goes, I think it's more than failing memory, it's pretty obvious to me he was just making things up. The San Antonio papers ate this stuff up, and don't seem to have been the least bit critical of all these wild tales, whether from Esparza or Candelaria or anyone else. jim
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Post by Allen Wiener on May 26, 2007 9:41:24 GMT -5
As with most of the eyewitnesses, you need increasing amounts of salt as the years go by. The later the interview, the more the embellishment, as a general rule. The closer you get to the battle itself, the more reliable these accounts are likely to be. I don't recall when Esparza's first interview took place, but the later ones do appear to be part fabrication, invention, or a mish-mash of what he'd heard or read from other sources. I think he also tended to tell them what he thought they wanted to hear or what would keep the spotlight on him for a few more minutes. There's not much copy in him saying "I was locked up most of the siege and didn't see anything. My father was killed and, when the Mexicans busted into our room, we were nearly killed too." He makes a few observations providing glimpses of the siege, but little of real value.
As to the truce -- I'm bothered by the fact none of the Mexicans mention it, and I wonder what purpose a truce would have served the Mexicans? Santa Anna did have a report of 200 Texan reenforcements on their way to Bexar, and he sent the cavalry out looking for them, but it never materialized. I honestly don't see how a truce would change anything for the Mexicans or what they stood to gain by it.
AW
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Post by Jim Boylston on May 26, 2007 10:30:48 GMT -5
That's a good point, I'm not sure I see it either. They certainly didn't need to buy time, and a truce seems to undermine the "surrender at discretion" demand. Another element of all these stories I find hard to believe is how much traffic seemed to be getting in and out of the compound during the early days of the seige. It seems that the locals were coming and going rather freely, at least according to some accounts. Jim
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Post by stuart on May 26, 2007 10:57:06 GMT -5
I suppose to some extent it may depend on how you define a truce.On the one hand I can find neither evidence nor any reason for a formal truce, ie; where both sides agree to stop fighting for a specified period of time or until a particular event takes place. A common one in sieges is an agreement that if a fortress is not relieved by a certain date then it will surrender and in the meantime since neither side has anything to gain they agree to refrain from murdering each other until the issue is decided.
On the other hand that's not to say there might not have been a fairly tacit policy of live and let live for a time with Santa Anna not wanting to push things until his reinforcements arrived and the garrison lacking the men for adventures of their own. In other words although there was not a truce as such it might have seemed like one to those expecting a real siege to be a continuous roar of cannon and musketry punctuated by "combats"
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Post by Jim Boylston on May 26, 2007 11:04:12 GMT -5
I wonder too, if this couldn't be explained by the actions described in DLP: Santa Anna had gotten wind of the defenders plans to bolt on the night of the 5th if they were not reinforced on that day, so ceased hostilities in the hope that they would make good on their plan and fall into the arms of Sesma's cavalry. While it isn't a three day truce, it may have seemed similar to Esparza, especially years later. Frankly, this scenario, outlined by DLP, makes a lot of sense to me and explains a lot of things that happened thereafter. Jim
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Post by Allen Wiener on May 26, 2007 11:27:49 GMT -5
The parley and exchanges of messages on the first day may have seemed like the start of a truce, but then there was the heavy cannonade for the first day at least, then a decline in canon shots. I detailed somewhere else the Almonte diary references to very little shooting over several days. I'm guessing the Mexican attitude was that time was on their side; there was little to fear from the Texans in the Alamo, they were keeping an eye out for any Texan reenforcements, and were waiting for reenforcements of their own, as well as the siege guns. SOP for a siege I guess. Is there any evidence of an amnesty for Tejano defenders, a story that also seems to have originated with the 1907 Esparza interview? I don't see that referred to anywhere else; not in the Mexican accounts. The following website includes these names as Tejanos who died in the Alamo: www.houstonculture.org/hispanic/alamo.htmlJuan Abamillo, Juan A. Badillo, Carlos Espalier, José María Esparza(aka Gregorio Esparza), Antonio Fuentes, and Andrés Nava, José Toribio Losoya, Damacio Jiménez. Groneman's "Defenders" book is one of their sources for this. AW
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Post by Jim Boylston on May 26, 2007 11:45:56 GMT -5
This brings us back again to attempting to interpret Travis's remark about there being only 3 Mexicans left in the Alamo in one of his last letters. I wonder if the statement in Filisola about there being 20 townspeople among the dead might not be different from the count of defenders killed. He mentions the 32 from Gonzales, the 150 defenders, and the 20 tradesmen from Bexar. Could these 20 have been Bexarenos who were considered collaborators, perhaps rounded up after the battle, rather than people who were part of the actual defense? While I'm still very skeptical of the Herff story discussed on another thread, this might explain a group of beheaded bodies buried elsewhere. This is complete speculation on my part, of course, and I think it's a reach, but it might explain the disparity in Travis and Filisola. Jim
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Post by Allen Wiener on May 26, 2007 12:22:34 GMT -5
Could be. If the accused colaborators were located in town, rather than in the Alamo, their executions would likely have taken place before the battle; maybe within a day or two of the Mexican arrival. However, I have not seen any Mexican references to this either and the Mexicans don't seem to have been too tough on the local population. I know they did some burning during the "runaway scrape" and Santa Anna had them looting and raping all over Zacatecas, both as a motivation for his troops and to strike terror into the hearts of rebels. Couldn't the Alcalde, Ruiz, have been seen as a collaborator? Wasn't he running errands for the Texans when the Mexicans arrived? There's something in Lindley's "Alamo Traces" about this I believe.
AW
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Post by stuart on May 26, 2007 13:05:42 GMT -5
We're crossing threads again here, but I don't think there's any ambiguity in Filisola's statement; those 20 Bexarenos were in the Alamo.
This is in flat contradiction to Travis' statement, but I think needs to be considered in the context of what else was going on. When Travis said there were only 3 did he really mean that literally or were they the only ones who were signed up to independence as distinct from the Federalistas who took refuge from Santa Anna within the walls but were otherwise hostile to independence. Its also worth noting just how few hispanic names appear on the voting roll. At the time the voting was done there must surely have been more armed Tejanos in Bexar, yet only 3 (co-incidence?) appear on the roll.
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