cje
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Posts: 60
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Post by cje on May 12, 2012 20:39:17 GMT -5
I have two questions about Col. Neil.
1. In the letter both Col. Neil and Col. James Bowie signed I believe was written in January 1836, speaking about the importance of holding San Antonio and the Alamo it spoke of holding these "ditches." What does that term "ditches" mean?
2. Just what "family illness" was it that led Col. Neil to leave the Alamo into Col. Travis's command?
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Post by loucapitano on May 13, 2012 12:55:49 GMT -5
1. I'm sure the Alamo experts in the forum will have better or more precise answers. I first read the Neil/Bowie letter while in high school and I always thought "ditches" was a metaphor for the crumbling state of the Alamo. It seemed to be a bit of hyperbole typical of political/military writing of that time. Then again, during the battle with General Cos for the village of San Antonio itself, a number of trenches (or ditches) were apparently dug and the commanders could have been referring to them. Again, these are just guesses. What do you guys and gals think? 2. My books and readings suggest that Neil applied for a furlogh to be with his sick family. Cholera and Typhus were serious illnesses at that time throughout America and Mexico. Weren't they they the illnesses that killed Bowie's family? In any case, perhaps Bowie advised Neil to be with his family, since his own experience had been so tragic. After all, the Mexican army was not about to advance during winter, and Neil would return to command within 25 days.
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Post by davidpenrod on May 13, 2012 14:39:26 GMT -5
Bowie's reference to ditches, first or foremost, reveals a lack of military acumen, as would be expected from an untrained soldier. If Bowie had been a soldado in one of the Mexican Army infantry battalions during the assault of the Alamo, he would have been left behind as an untrained recruit - as per Santa Anna's operations order. That's not to say the man couldn't fight - we all know his skills in this arena - he certainly held his own against the Comanche, who were some of the best warriors around, and his aggressiveness at Concepcion exemplifies a professional soldier's fighting spirit. But the fact is, like Travis, he neither knew nor understood sound military tactics. He was an amateur, albeit a experienced one.
Second, the term ditches can apply to either the trenches dug by the Mexicans in the plazas of Bexar or around certain parts of the Alamo. I believe Bowie referred to the trenches in Bexar because the Texans intended to defend both Bexar and the Alamo, just as the Mexicans had done. Remember, the Texan's only experience with military professionalism and tactics, poor though they were (the tactics I mean; the battalion in Bexar fought with great determination in a fight for which no troops of that era trained, i.e., urban warfare), was the Mexican Army's defense of Bexar and the Alamo. Only God knows what would have happened if the Mexicans had been commanded by a man other than Cos - like that battalion commander in Bexar, for instance (I cant remember the battalion's name; somebody will help out here, I hope).
Neill, Travis and Bowie did not expect the main Mexican Army until late April or May of 1836, a reasonable expectation as grass for horse fodder would be plentiful by then and the weather milder, even warm. Remember, our forces during the Civil War rarely fought during the Winter with principal operations usually commencing in April and ending by November/December. Bowie et., al., expected no less from Santa Anna, whom they underestimated because of Cos, and their fellow Texans to reinforce them before then, another reasonable expectation. As we know, the arrival of the Mexican Army at Bexar after a forced march in horrible Winter conditions, including a blizzard, took the Texans by surprise. They made a bee-line for the Alamo from Bexar, having prepared it but little if at all.
Anyway, that's my $10 worth, the price for such opinions having gone up. No doubt some will disagree, but they are 5th Columnists, insurrectionists, or contrarions - or worse yet, people with different opinions. And evidence.
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cje
Full Member
Posts: 60
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Post by cje on May 13, 2012 19:15:29 GMT -5
Thanks everyone. I think the Texans could have learned a few things then from Mexican Engineers following the December 1835 battle for San Antonio. I can see where the term "ditches" could have come from various fortification the Mexican Army must have put up around the town.
I can also see where Bowie could have encouraged Neil to go and be with his family based on his own experience and the thought of no invasion until late Spring.
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Post by stuart on May 14, 2012 11:43:09 GMT -5
I'm not at all sure it should be taken literally at all, but rather metaphorically as in a last ditch stand.
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Post by Allen Wiener on May 14, 2012 13:31:17 GMT -5
From Jim Donovan's new book, The Blood of Heroes:
After describing Cos's improvements to the Alamo prior to the battle of Bexar, Donovan describes the fortifications in the town itself:
"Log and earth barricades, some of them twelve feet high, blocked the main streets and reinforced the doors to several of the larger buildings, and nine cannon on swivels protected the town squares and the roads leading to them. At the entrance of every street, a ditch was dug ten feet wide and five feet deep. Over this was a breastwork of upright posts built with portholes for muskets and a large one in the center for cannon" (p. 67; emphasis added). Later, in his chapter on the battle of Bexar, he notes that the Texians, too, dug trenches and that Ben Milam was buried in one of them.
Presumably the Texians would have taken possession of these fortifications, hence Bowie's and Neill's reference to "these ditches." Had enough men remained in Bexar, and had the force been better disciplined, the Texian commanders might have planned to defend the town, which is probably what Bowie and Neill had in mind when they wrote that letter. They also were hoping to receive substantial reinforcements, which also could have enabled them to defend the town, but as we know, that became impossible.
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Post by davidpenrod on May 14, 2012 16:44:26 GMT -5
Allen, I agree. I don't think James Bowie was an allegorical thinker. I think he was literal and when he wrote of "ditches," he meant trenches but didn't know the right word for it. I don't think he was trying to convey anything beyond that.
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Post by Chuck T on May 14, 2012 23:48:50 GMT -5
Has anyone thought about the wisdom of defending a town so easily approachable on three sides, and with a river at the defenders back?
Another thing that popped into my mind was just how was the artillery to be employed, even moved? Seems like if people such as Donovan and many others before him stated that the Texian defenders resolved to remain at least in part because of the great number of artillery pieces present, they would be thinking about how to move them into position for employment.
Another thing that crossed my mind is that Jameson the engineer was making plans to defend the Alamo by first shoring up, and then extending those defenses at the very same time this die in the ditches letter was written. Who was giving him his instructons, and if they intended to defend both why was he not at work on the town also? There is nothing in his correspondence that suggest such an undetaking.
Has anyone given any thought to the trenches that were at that time being planned and probably under construction around the Alamo, might be the ditches to which Bowie and Neill refered? These same trenches were the ones used to advantage during the first probe on the Alamo
Has anyone taken a good hard look at how many defenders would be required to hold the town? Seems to me if a figure of 600 to 1000 would be an adequate garrison for the Alamo, the town would have required 2 to 3 times that many. To many disconnects for me.
Also I can't recall anything saying that when Santa Anna did arrive on 23 February they were bothered by any stockades or ditches in the roadways. Perhaps I have never read it. Perhaps they were no longer there.
The old proverb states that he who would defend everything, defends nothing. Therefore when you can defend a fairly compact position, like the Alamo, possession of which threatens the town, why would you even comtemplate doing anything else?
Stuart has the best handle on this I believe. It was a metaphore, a way of saying we intend to hold, and if need be die in the trying.
I read Donovan last week and lent it to a friend this past Sunday. I seem to remember that he said somewhere in there that the ditches and stockades in the town were destroyed during the battle and the immediate aftermath. Allen. can you verify that if you have your copy close at hand?
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Post by Allen Wiener on May 15, 2012 7:39:02 GMT -5
Chuck - I'm sidetracked with some research at the moment, but plan to get back to Donovan this week, so I'll let you know. Offhand I'd say that the Texians may have had plans to defend the town because the key phrase in the letter notes that Bexar must be kept out of the hands of the enemy. And Santa Anna's real objective was the town, not the Alamo, and he got that on day one. I believe the Texian plans all hinged on their belief (or hope) that large numbers of reinforcements would come to Bexar; that never happened.
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Post by Herb on May 15, 2012 10:33:25 GMT -5
Key piece of evidence being ignored, is Houston's actual orders to Bowie to destroy the fortifications in the town of Bexar, and withdraw everything into the Alamo. Bowie clearly moved the cannon from the town into the Alamo, and I would imagine he received plenty of help from the civilian population in reopening the streets of town. The fact that 40% or more of the garrison was billeted in town for convenience has nothing to do with whether or not the Texans intended to defend the town.
Speaking militarily, you don't have to occupy a piece of terrain to defend it. See. Lee and Richmond. The Alamo, properly equipped, and manned could have dominated Bexar.
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Post by davidpenrod on May 15, 2012 11:19:04 GMT -5
I dont think there's any doubt that the Texans intended to defend both Bexar and the Alamo - with their main defenses in Bexar.
The fact that an urban area is approachable from three sides, or four sides for that matter, is irrelevant. What matters are the battle positions inside the town. The Mexican battalion defending the town had prepared excellent positions, inside Bexar around the plazas. The Texans could never have defended Bexar's perimeter, no more than 200 men could have defended the Alamo's perimeter. But perimeter defense is the last thing you want to do when defending urbanized terrain. The enemy can sit off and hammer you with artillery. But once inside the city, that artillery is rendered ineffective as the gun crews would be exposed to rifle fire.
The Texans relied almost exclusively upon the field fortifications prepared by the Mexicans as well as their concept of the operation. This was a mistake - but they didnt know it because they were not professional soldiers. They were amateurs. The only professionals they had encountered in battle were the Mexicans and so they followed their example. Unfortunately, Cos' concept of the operation was deficient on numerous levels - the worst of which was failing to concentrate his forces on a single piece of defensible terrain. By splitting his forces and dividing them by a river staked on either bank by large, hard-wood trees (For God sake, how stupid could one man be?) and then placing them in positions that provided no mutual support, Cos doomed his command before the Texans ever arrived on scene. The French Foreign Legion did the same thing at Dien Bien Phu.
The 5 day fight for Bexar, which the Texans never succeeded in clearing, would have served as an example of the ease with which one can defend barricaded buildings and streets. Given that experience, why would the Texans not defend Bexar? All those buildings in and around the plazas represented a greater obstacle to an attacking force than the Alamo. But they didn't have the men to defend it so they had to skedaddled to the Alamo.
Green Jameson may have been a trained civil engineer, but he was not a trained combat engineer and had no grasp of sound military engineering. If the copies of the plans he prepared of the Alamo defenses are accurate, he had a whimsical, school-boy approach to field fortifications. He was preparing for a dirt clod fight and not a defensive battle with cannon and rifle. You dont defend walls (or buildings) from the top, but at ground level where you get grazing fire. He had no concept of interlocking fields of fire, integration of obstacles within sectors of fire, the critical importance of enfilade fire, and the equally critical need for reducing or eliminating defilade along the walls. A combat engineer would have looked at all those vertical walls and burst into tears - and combat engineers are not known for expressing their emotions.
I am not aware of any entrenchments outside the walls of the Alamo - regardless of Sanchez Navarro. Jake Ivey has shown that the field fortifications drawn by Sanchez Navarro around the southwest corner of the plaza were never there. SN may simple have seen piles of dirt from the Mexican's acequia dig and assumed they were trenches. Regardless, external positions like that would only have been useful as cannon positions for establishing enfilading fire along the west wall - a really, really good idea. But they were not there.
As you said, he who defends everything, defends nothing. The Texans didn't know that little axiom and they violated it the moment they decided to defend all of the Alamo instead of a concentrated position within it that could be defended by 150 to 200 men. Alamo Plaza and the church's campo santo would have been wonderful kill zones in which the assaulting Mexicans could have been trapped and slaughtered. And the Texans could have prepared them both during daylight hours without having to sortie.
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Post by Chuck T on May 15, 2012 11:23:25 GMT -5
Herb: I completely agree. Having the guns though was not enough. Guns are useless unless trained gunners, good fire control, and a the proper type, quality and quanity of ammo was on hand. Guns they had, and it would have been a hot time in the old town, had they been adequately trained, equiped and supplied. Defending means domination of terrain, not necessarily sitting your butt on top of it.
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Post by Chuck T on May 15, 2012 11:34:39 GMT -5
Davidpenrod: Interesting defense of your position, with which I largely disagree. Based upon our previous encounters, I am afraid you will have to pardon me from any further discussion, as I do not wish to debate with you point by point. I do think that some of the others may find you views interesting though and they may take up the challenge.
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Post by Allen Wiener on May 15, 2012 11:55:40 GMT -5
All interesting points and I'm really out of my depth down in these weeds. One thing that does run through all this discussion is the need for professionally trained, disciplined troops to do an adequate job of just about anything. The Texians didn't have that, let alone nearly enough men. In that regard, I think we have to consider how quickly and easily Santa Anna wiped out a similar volunteer army at Zacatecas -- and they outnumbered him by quite a margin in that one. So numbers and positions aren't everything.
Herb - good point about Houston's orders, but weren't those order either flexible (much left to Bowie's judgment)? Also, I may be wrong here, but my impression is that Bowie, Travis and others in this war did not hesitate to ignore or modify such orders once arriving at the front. My impression of Houston's orders to Bowie were that he intended the entire Bexar location to be abandoned, including the Alamo, and for the artillery to be brought east to defend places Houston considered more imortant, such as the port cities. This reminds me of a suggestion Stuart made a while back that Houston had no real interest in including Bexar or much of southwest (Hispanic) Texas in a new republic or a state that might be annexed to the U.S.
David - I wonder if defending part of the Alamo only was realistic. Again, I'm out of my league here, but wouldn't that leave the rest of compound open to Mexican occupation and artillery? Just hard for me to picture how this would play out.
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Post by davidpenrod on May 15, 2012 12:22:45 GMT -5
Defending a small part of the Alamo would have been easy. It would have included the Convento, the Courtyards, the Church and the campo santo. A nice little tight spot. And it allows for further compression of your position as the enemy clears a room or position. You then knock down any structure on the inside of the Plaza, such as along the west walls, so the Mexicans could not use them as cover. Defending this position doesn't mean that they would have not initially defended the perimeter of the plaza. By doing so, they would have kept the Mexicans at bay, deceived them about their intentions, slowed them down during an assault, and given time for the gunners, after a volley or two, to get the few guns still on the walls into the MDP. The five doors of the convento would not have been blocked by hide-bound dirt but by five cannons inside the rooms. As Sanchez-Navarro pointed out, if the Texans had properly prepared the 2 story convento, the result of the fight would have been much different.
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