tomh
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Post by tomh on Feb 8, 2011 11:26:42 GMT -5
I am new to this forum and have never been a serious student of Alamo studies. Having just read Col. Fremante's account of his three months in the U.S. during the spring and early summer of 1863 I was curious about his description of his time in San Antonio. Most of you probably know that he traveled from Brownsville, Texas, (from Great Britain) to observe Lee's Army of Northern Va. as they embarked on their invasion of Pennsylvania in June-July 1863. He passed through San Antonio and commented on some quite trivial matters (tobacco chewing habits of Texas women for example) and observations of abandoned missions outside of San Antonio, but made no comment about having visited the Alamo, if indeed he did. My question to serious students of the Alamo is why would a military man of Fremantle's gravitas fail to comment on something that had only happened 27 years previous or have conversations with local residents who were probably first hand observers of the events of March 6, 1836? Was the defense of the Alamo considered America's Thermopylae in 1863 or did contemporary historians and observers dismiss it as a minor affair on Texas' road to independence. As I said, I am not an Alamo scholar and I apologize to anyone who may consider my comment flip or dismissive of the brave defense and defenders of the Alamo. Fremantle also predicted that the south would win the Civil War, so maybe he was not that astute afterall. When did the events of March 6, 1836, and the defenders of the Alamo become depicted in history and main stream culture as the heroes they truly were?
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Post by Jim Boylston on Feb 8, 2011 12:19:21 GMT -5
Welcome to the forum.
I can't answer your query with any specificity regarding the officer, but newpapers began canonizing the defenders almost immediately after the battle. Even the earliest reports.
Jim
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Post by TRK on Feb 8, 2011 17:42:33 GMT -5
Welcome, tomh. That's a good question, and one I've wondered about myself. There's no doubt Fremantle saw the Alamo: he stayed at the Menger and was in town for three days. He seems to have spent much of his time schmoozing with military people, and devotes much of his narrative of his time in San Antonio to that topic. He seemed more intent on the progress of the current Civil War than with what may have happened militarily in San Antonio in the not-distant past. Fremantle's book is only about 300 pages long, with pretty large type: it's a fairly quick read: maybe Fremantle's original manuscript talked about the Alamo, but an editor cut it out to keep the length of the book under control. There's also a chance that Fremantle, like Santa Anna, considered the Battle of the Alamo "but a small affair" and thus was dismissive of it.
It's been 20 years since I read Fremantle's book, but I remember my impression at the time was that it was sort of breezy and not real deep. But it gets quoted a lot because he was an eyewitness at Gettysburg.
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Post by Kevin Young on Feb 8, 2011 19:06:53 GMT -5
Well, considering he was staying next door, and at the time it was a Confederate military instillation, it is odd he fails to mention it. But it may be simply do to the brevity of the narrative...certainly we have numerous mentions of visits to the Alamo by other travelers before the Civil War, and during the Mexican War, it was "the thing to do" to leave camp and go see where "Crockett fell." The same can be said of the Fannin Battlefield which is also referenced by travelers on the Victoria-Goliad-San Antonio road.
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Post by stuart on Feb 9, 2011 2:19:58 GMT -5
As Tom says, breezy is the word and cocktails figured highly in his narrative, but the Texas revolution didn't come into it at all (interestingly from my own perspective he also passed through and provided a description of Agua Dulce) and I think it could well be down to it being a small affair long ago - and who was Crockett anyway?
On which note, while we often groan at the obsession with How Davy Died, would the Alamo still be remembered as it is if he didn't?
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Post by Allen Wiener on Feb 9, 2011 9:17:03 GMT -5
On which note, while we often groan at the obsession with How Davy Died, would the Alamo still be remembered as it is if he didn't? Doubtful. Highly doubtful. Maybe as well as Goliad is. |
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Post by Kevin Young on Feb 9, 2011 12:17:03 GMT -5
Allen & Stuart: Your post serves to remind me that two battlefields, not to far from Allen's home, are also in the catagory of near forgotten. Almost as many men died defending their beliefs at Chantilly (OX HIll), Virginia then died in the entire Texas Revolution. Yet there are only two gravestone like markers there. Today they are lost in a sea of a shopping center and condos. Brandy Station (Fleetwood Heights), noteable for being the largest cavalry vs. cavalry fight of the entire war, is marked by a single monument well off the main road where no one could find it were they not looking for it. We forget to easily in this country. Well, closure to home (the Alamo) there is the battle of the Medina... The Alamo was already a "site to be visited" by the time of the Civil War. I will agree that the Crockett connection helped, but it is really after the Confederate defeat that the Alamo took on the epic legandary position it still retains...no doubt due (at least in part) to Texans in reconstruction looking to the victory of the 1836 War for Independence as a source of state and regional pride in contrast to the defeat of their "second" war for independence. The whole event took on the forum of a Greek tragity-with the Alamo defenders being the doomed heroes. Goliad, which in many ways had been held almost on the same level in the ante-bellum years, got demoted because of the surrender aspect. Crockett is a big factor to the remembering of the Alamo... |
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tomh
Member
Posts: 2
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Post by tomh on Feb 9, 2011 12:22:07 GMT -5
Thanks for the many thoughtful responses to my query regarding Col. Fremantle. His description of Texas and the colorful characters he encountered in 1863 is worth the price of the book (which is currently available free electronically through several sources). I place a high value on his reporting on the events of the day as did E. Porter Alexander, James Longstreet, and D.S. Freeman. His character reminds me of Fraser's Harry Flashman whose many fictionalized adventures never took him to the Alamo, but did lead him to Balaclava, the Little Big Horn, Alma, Inkerman, Kabul, and many other places. I also highly recommend Fraser's non-fiction story of his own adventures fighting the Japanese in World War II. It is called "Quartered Safe Out Here" and is quite interesting. He recently died, so the Flashman series is over but he was a prolific writer so there are many Flashman adventures to entertain us when we take a break from whatever history we are reading.
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Post by Hiram on Feb 16, 2011 1:17:02 GMT -5
Another colonel visited San Antonio and also wrote a book, The Rough Riders (1899), and his only mention of the Alamo was the following sentence: "We had enjoyed San Antonio, and were glad that our regiment had been organized in the city where the Alamo commemorates the death fight of Crockett, Bowie, and their famous band of frontier heroes."
That's all he wrote about the Cradle of Texas Liberty. No mention of the Menger Hotel, or the hotel bar; or even of Mission Concepcion (where his photograph was taken.)
I'm not claiming that TR never visited the Alamo or the Menger Bar, I'm just noting that he (or perhaps his editor) didn't think it to be relevant to the subject matter at hand.
I also find it significant that Travis gets no mention at all. As many ASF members are aware, WBT was the last of the Big Three to be apotheosized.
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Post by stuart on Feb 16, 2011 2:04:35 GMT -5
I also find it significant that Travis gets no mention at all. As many ASF members are aware, WBT was the last of the Big Three to be apotheosized.Its interesting to see how these things evolve. In Texas right up to the early days of statehood there are a lot of references to the gallant Travis and his men. The Crockett "cult" seems to have been an American thing. As you'll remember from How Davy Died discussions all of the interest - and the early stories he'd been executed - came from New Orleans and points eastward. Now they obviously knew who he was in Texas, but he was only a volunteer at the Alamo while Travis was the man in command. It obviously changed over the years as more and more Americans came to Texas but I'd dispute that he was the last to be apotheosized. Bowie is probably the interesting one. Travis as I've said was honoured from the outset and Crockett only later overtook him in fame and popularity, but where did Bowie really come in as a hero in his own right? |
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Post by Kevin Young on Feb 16, 2011 8:52:09 GMT -5
Another colonel visited San Antonio and also wrote a book, The Rough Riders (1899), and his only mention of the Alamo was the following sentence: "We had enjoyed San Antonio, and were glad that our regiment had been organized in the city where the Alamo commemorates the death fight of Crockett, Bowie, and their famous band of frontier heroes."
That's all he wrote about the Cradle of Texas Liberty. No mention of the Menger Hotel, or the hotel bar; or even of Mission Concepcion (where his photograph was taken.)
I'm not claiming that TR never visited the Alamo or the Menger Bar, I'm just noting that he (or perhaps his editor) didn't think it to be relevant to the subject matter at hand.
I also find it significant that Travis gets no mention at all. As many ASF members are aware, WBT was the last of the Big Three to be apotheosized. Good observation. Wayne Cox used to joke that the reason Bonham is on the Cenotaph is because they needed a fourth guy. |
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Post by Allen Wiener on Feb 16, 2011 9:28:47 GMT -5
I've also heard that about the Bonham statue and chuckled the last time I gazed at the Cenotaph. Still, I like to think he's there for all the other "no name" defenders; after all, they all did die there. Be interesting to see when the now-legendary story of Bonham's ride and return to the Alamo "knowing he was doomed" began.
Travis was unknown outside of Texas; Crockett was a national celebrity. With the possible exception of Houston, he was the best known American in Texas.
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Post by stuart on Feb 16, 2011 16:51:53 GMT -5
Travis was unknown outside of Texas; Crockett was a national celebrity. With the possible exception of Houston, he was the best known American in Texas. Perhaps that was why Travis was synonymous with the Alamo in the early days so far as Texians were concerned - he was one of their own. |
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Post by Allen Wiener on Feb 16, 2011 18:03:32 GMT -5
Could be, Stuart. But, then, I wonder why so many of those San Jacinto interrogations of Mexicans may have included specific questions about Crockett. I mean, if that actually took place.
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Post by Hiram on Feb 17, 2011 0:21:23 GMT -5
The first Alamo monument was four-sided and displayed the names of Bowie, Travis, Crockett and Bonham. The Memorial Fountain (adjacent to the DRT Library) also has the four names displayed and was constructed prior to the Cenotaph.
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