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Post by Tom Nuckols on Nov 16, 2010 21:42:43 GMT -5
Recent threads started me thinking about how posterity treated those who fought in the revolution. My personal experience has me wondering if individual communities played favorites in naming streets, schools and other buildings, etc. after certan rebels. For example, where I grew up there were streets named for Travis, Crockett, Houston, and Lamar. Where I live now, they've long had streets and/or schools named after Crockett, Travis, Lamar, and Burnet. But until the '90's when they named a school for him, it was like my home town in that nothing notable was named for Bowie. Is it just coincidence that Bowie happened not to have been honored like the others in the places I lived? As time passed after the revolution, factions clearly developed who viewed some rebels highly but looked down on others. Could these factions have influenced who was or wasn't honored with a naming in a certain community? I'm just wondering if this is a coincidence of my own experience or if anyone has noticed a trend.
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Post by Allen Wiener on Nov 16, 2010 22:13:42 GMT -5
I can't answer those specific questions, but there is an excellent book by James Loewen called "Lies Across America," which critiques many landmarks, road signs, monuments and the like and points out the flaws, inaccuracies and outright lies that appear on so many of them. He used these markers as an example in how to do historiography. By finding out when the monument or sign was erected, and/or by whom, you can learn more about that time period and the people who put it up than the sign will teach you about the (alleged) historical event of individual. No doubt there were political agendas behind many signs, street names, etc. in Texas as there were everywhere else.
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Post by Chuck T on Nov 17, 2010 12:38:19 GMT -5
GBJ: Like Allen I can't answer questions about local issues but I am sure politics plays some part in all decisions like this. But that is not why I posted.
I am not sure if you know this but the names Travis, Bowie, and Crockett have been used for Army installations in Texas.
Camp Travis was originally established as a World War I cantonment, and a sub-post of Fort Sam Houston in San Antonio. It was later incorporated into FSH. The site is where Brooke Army Medical Center and the large parade ground are now. As it was a temporary site, constructed of tar paper buildings nothing remains. I am not sure if there is any marker there now. I looked when last there but was unable to find one. My son-in-laws office is now where Camp Travis once stood.
Fort Crockett was a Coast Artillery post on the seawall at Galveston. The remains of one battery are still there, although most of the rest of the post has been demolished.
Camp Bowie: There were two (and I have seen reference to a third, although I don't know its location) Camp Bowies in Texas. The first was established in World War I and its site is now in the middle of Fort Worth. Its location is now marked by an historical plaque and Camp Bowie Road still exists. The second was established in World War II and is in Brownwood. It was closed in 1946, and part of the land has been developed. I think the Texas Army National Guard now administers part of what's left and it is used as a training area.
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Post by Tom Nuckols on Nov 18, 2010 3:41:20 GMT -5
Fort Crockett was a Coast Artillery post on the seawall at Galveston. The remains of one battery are still there, although most of the rest of the post has been demolished. Camp Bowie: There were two (and I have seen reference to a third, although I don't know its location) Camp Bowies in Texas. The first was established in World War I and its site is now in the middle of Fort Worth. Its location is now marked by an historical plaque and Camp Bowie Road still exists. Yes, I'm a "coast-hugger", so I've been to Fort Crockett many times. In fact, I've slept on top of it at George Mitchell's San Luis hotel. Last I knew, I watched Geraldo Rivera reporting from atop the battery on TV when Hurricane Ike's eye passed over it, at which point I realized Bolivar was toast because it was east of the eyewall. I'll never forget that night. As for Camp Bowie Road, my dad was from Panther City, so I know it.
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Post by Kevin Young on Nov 18, 2010 9:27:08 GMT -5
GBJ: I am not sure if you know this but the names Travis, Bowie, and Crockett have been used for Army installations in Texas. . There was a Camp Crockett established in San Antonio by the United States Army in 1846.
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Post by Chuck T on Nov 18, 2010 9:38:21 GMT -5
Kevin: Do you know its exact location? I have a thing for old military installations. Also do you know the exact location of Camp Grant, a World War I mobilization site in your home state.
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Post by Herb on Nov 18, 2010 12:05:00 GMT -5
A couple of others: Camp Fannin, Tyler WWII; Fort Travis, Bolivar Point. 1911-46; Fort San Jacinto, Galveston 1911-46.
There was also a Camp Milam - that served soley as a POW camp in WWII.
It has always struck me as ironic that the County Seat of Fannin County is Bonham.
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Post by Kevin Young on Nov 18, 2010 12:09:39 GMT -5
A couple of others: Camp Fannin, Tyler WWII; Fort Travis, Bolivar Point. 1911-46; Fort San Jacinto, Galveston 1911-46. Great story they tell in Goliad is that a train load of soldiers were heading for Camp Fannin and happened to pass through Fannin, Texas. Officer saw the sign and not much else and had everyone get off the train...
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Post by mustanggray on Nov 18, 2010 13:04:34 GMT -5
There was also a Camp Bowie from late April to mid June of 1837. It's location is 8 miles SE of Edna in Jackson County.
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Post by Chuck T on Nov 18, 2010 16:00:38 GMT -5
MG: That must be the one I have seen referenced that I mentioned above. Is it marked in some manner? And thanks.
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Post by Kevin Young on Nov 18, 2010 22:49:49 GMT -5
.
Rockford, Illinois. The Chicago-Rockford International Airport occupies most of the sitre. Fellow Alamo travler Greg Jacobs just published a book on Camp Grant. During WWII some of the German POWS were sent down here to Hoopeston (six miles up the road from me) to work in the corn harvest. Remains of the POW camp in Hoopeston are still there on Route 9 East.
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Post by Kevin Young on Nov 18, 2010 22:51:49 GMT -5
Fort Crockett was a Coast Artillery post on the seawall at Galveston. The remains of one battery are still there, although most of the rest of the post has been demolished. Camp Bowie: There were two (and I have seen reference to a third, although I don't know its location) Camp Bowies in Texas. The first was established in World War I and its site is now in the middle of Fort Worth. Its location is now marked by an historical plaque and Camp Bowie Road still exists. Yes, I'm a "coast-hugger", so I've been to Fort Crockett many times. In fact, I've slept on top of it at George Mitchell's San Luis hotel. Last I knew, I watched Geraldo Rivera reporting from atop the battery on TV when Hurricane Ike's eye passed over it, at which point I realized Bolivar was toast because it was east of the eyewall. I'll never forget that night. As for Camp Bowie Road, my dad was from Panther City, so I know it. Prior to the San Luis being built, we used the site as a camp for the re-enactors representing the Confederates for the old Battle of Galveston Re-enactment. There were some underground storage facilities that made driving a tent stake a real problem.
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Post by Kevin Young on Nov 19, 2010 9:34:37 GMT -5
When the US Army arrived in San Antonio in late fall 1845, they established Camp Olmos, which as the name suggests, was above the headwaters of the San Antonio River in the area of Olmos Creek. When Wool arrived in the summer of 1846 with the Army of the Centre, Camp Crockett was established. I have a letter from Charles Sellon of the 2nd Illinois Volunteers date September 6, 1846 noting "There is a long row of large cotttonwood trees, on the east side of the town-called the Alamo Avenue-where we are encamped-the shade of the trees afford us an excellent and cool retreat from the scorching rays of the southern sun..."
Otto Engelmann also of the Second Illinois noted on August 26 that "our camp here is on the open, level ground, lying between the bluffs on one side and a fine deep, cool, crystal-clear branch on the other. There is a bit of timber along the creek." He indicates that the camp os three miles above the city. His next letter in September is from Camp Crockett and makes no mention of any major move...
So, some debate. Camp Crockett could be either in what is now San Pedro Park (where a TSHA marker says it was) or could have been near the headwaters...over in the area of Brackenridge Park. Either location could fit Engelmann's description...
The US Dragoons also had a camp near Mission Concepcion...
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Post by Kevin Young on Nov 19, 2010 9:39:38 GMT -5
Looked at my well worn copy of gerald S. Pierce's Texas Under Arms for a refresher...
ROT Camp Bowie was on the eastside of the Navidad at Red Bluff near a later day cemetery of the same name.
There was a ROT Camp Travis in 1837 occuoied by Juan Sequin. Could have been in Wilson County, but Pierce feels was close to Mission San Jose because Seguin had establish his HQ there.
There was also Fort Milam at the Falls of the Brazos. This was the older community of Sarahville de Viesca that was renamed in Milam's honor. Lasted till 1838. Markers is 4 miles SW of present Marlin.
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Post by Chuck T on Nov 19, 2010 13:49:37 GMT -5
Kevin: Your description of some of these possible locations just points to the frustration of trying to find some of these old sites with any degree of accuracy.
My question to you about Camp Grant was prompted by this. My reference for these World War I sites is the "Order of Battle of the United States Army in the World War". The set contains quite a bit of detail about posts, camps and installations. It does however describe some of the WWI use only sites as being - one a a half miles SW of so and so city. The problem here is that so and so city has changed quite a bit since 1918 and to measure this distance you need a starting point.
One such example is Camp Yaphank on Long Island. It was a mobilization/demobilization site in 1917-18. The site itself would be forgetable except for the fact that it was at this site, and the site was the namesake for, the Army musical of the period "Yip Yip Yaphank" written by Irvin Berlin. As far as I know there is not even a marker there. Those of you that may be familiar with the WWII version of YYY - "This is the Army" - starring Ronald Reagan, and Kate "God Bless America" Smith may remember Irving Berlin himself singing in that movie (a rare occasion) "Oh How I Hate To Get Up In The Morning" which was the only notable tune from YYY as the movies tribute to WWI vets.
You also have to be very careful, as I am sure you know, about the location of historical markers. One that comes to mind in my experience is that until fairly recently the marker for the Battle of Chantilly/Ox Hill (1 September 1862) was located six miles from the battle site. I lived in Chantilly, VA in the 1970's and it took me six months to find the location of the main portion of the battle. It was only when one of my neighbors mentioned that there were two Civil War markers (To Isaac Stevens and Phil Kearney, both killed there) in a friend of her's back yard, was I able to pinpoint the area. Today that area is a small park, safe from development surrounded by a huge shopping center and Condo Disneyland. It took five years of very hard work to save this small area from development.
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