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Post by Wade Dillon on Jul 30, 2010 9:29:50 GMT -5
Did Travis draw the line in the sand, as legend states?
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Post by gtj222 on Jul 30, 2010 11:27:54 GMT -5
Did Travis draw the line in the sand, as legend states? Wade, The story first appeared in the Texas Almanac thirty-seven years after the battle. It was written by William Zuber. He got the story from his parents who said Moses Rose told them the story while they cared for his wounds. In the printed story Zuber has Travis giving a long stirring speech. Years later Zuber admitted that he emblished the speech, but insisted the story was true. Susanna Dickinson said Travis drew the line and a man named "Ross" jumped over the wall. So, like everything Alamo. No proof either way.
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Post by George Mabry on Jul 31, 2010 20:31:48 GMT -5
Susanna Dickinson gave a statement to the Adjutant General in 1877 in which she states "On the evening previous to the massacre, Col. Travis asked the command that if any desired to escape, now was the time, to let it be known, and to step out of ranks." If I remember correctly, Lon Tinkle liked this statement because he thought it sounded like it had less editorial assistance than other statements attributed to her.
My own opinion is that there may have been no line in the sand but the effect was the same. What's the difference between stepping out of ranks or stepping across the line? In both instances you are "voting with your feet"
George
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Post by Chuck T on Jul 31, 2010 22:02:19 GMT -5
Line in the sand or not, each man save one crossed his own personal line. Zuber admitted he embelished the speech when he recounted the tale of Rose's escape. I believe he also said that there was one element that he added to the story that without which the story would be incomplete. He never said was that was, at least not to my knowledge.
People have speculated for more than a hundred years what it was, most thinking it was the line crossing. The only thing that makes me think that speculation might be in error is that Zuber specificly mentions Tapley Holland as being the first man over the line. Why or how would he know to add that bit of information, had there not been some sort of stay or go moment.
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Post by George Mabry on Jul 31, 2010 23:47:37 GMT -5
I too agree that there was a stay or go moment. I also believe that Zuber, with just a few embellishments, was telling a story he had heard from his parents. Rose I'm not so sure about. I think Rose was at the Alamo and left. Exactly when he left and the circumstances of his departure are something I've never settled in my own mind.
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Post by Allen Wiener on Aug 1, 2010 9:55:48 GMT -5
I'm not sure when Rose left either. It's just possible he somehow survived the battle and got away, hence the bloody clothes (assuming they really did exist). Perhaps he was too embarrassed to say he'd survived when his comrades had all perished. Ah, that's what's so great about studying the Alamo -- clarity as far as the eye can see!
Allen
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Post by Paul Sylvain on Aug 1, 2010 10:47:20 GMT -5
I've long wondered about the possibility of someone, somehow getting away during the battle. I mean, some folks escaped the executions at Goliad, and that was in broad daylight. It's possible someone -- maybe even Rose -- did get away. I doubt we'll ever know.
We talk about us "crossing the line" by signing on as Alamo Society members. There's no physical line involved at all, but it's an analogy taken from Alamo legend, and very fitting. I don't believe Travis scratched a line in the dirt at all, but have no doubt all but possibly one man made the decision to cross their own line in deciding to stay, and to fight and die with Travis.
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Post by Allen Wiener on Aug 1, 2010 11:38:04 GMT -5
I've often wondered if Travis didn't actually ask those who wanted to leave to cross the line. That's a different thing altogether. In one of her interviews (mentioned above), Susanna Dickenson said that only one man stepped out in response to Travis's appeal and I think she mentioned "Rose" or "Ross."
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Post by Rich Curilla on Aug 1, 2010 12:05:06 GMT -5
We talk about us "crossing the line" by signing on as Alamo Society members. There's no physical line involved at all, but it's an analogy taken from Alamo legend, and very fitting. I don't believe Travis scratched a line in the dirt at all, but have no doubt all but possibly one man made the decision to cross their own line in deciding to stay, and to fight and die with Travis. And I'll bet that every one of them would have said something like "I crossed the line" in describing the moment of decision, even if no physical line had been drawn. It has always amused me that such a dramatic gesture gets pushed aside by Hollywood (Wayne and Hancock) in spite of their tendancy to embrace ANY symbolic action that will present a complex intellectual point in simple dramatic form. It seems they are simply avoiding the fact that -- line drawing or no -- the gesture has become a major cliche in relation to the Alamo.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Aug 1, 2010 12:10:24 GMT -5
That said, at this point in the filmography of Alamo, if I made one, I would take it one step further. I would lead the audience to believe that it was a dry-eyed telling of the story but then, at the last moment, go in for a big close-up of Travis as he himself becomes emotional, pulls his sword out and draws the line. If done with cinematic pazazz, this unexpected gesture could even bring a cheer from the audience -- certainly from Alamo buffs. Is there anybody here who wouldn't cheer for a filmmaker who would "cross the line" and draw the line?
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Post by marklemon on Aug 1, 2010 21:39:51 GMT -5
I've long wondered about the possibility of someone, somehow getting away during the battle. I mean, some folks escaped the executions at Goliad, and that was in broad daylight. It's possible someone -- maybe even Rose -- did get away. I doubt we'll ever know. We talk about us "crossing the line" by signing on as Alamo Society members. There's no physical line involved at all, but it's an analogy taken from Alamo legend, and very fitting. I don't believe Travis scratched a line in the dirt at all, but have no doubt all but possibly one man made the decision to cross their own line in deciding to stay, and to fight and die with Travis. I have been strongly persuaded by the account told by a family of fleeing Bexar citizens, of two men who overtook them on March 29, on the road to Nacadoches, and telling them that the Alamo had fallen, and if anyone other than themselves had survived the carnage, they were not aware of it. One of them was severely wounded. This is one of those accounts that has a ring of truth to it, and while no details were offered, such as their identities, this kind of thing seems to have been par for the course in those days. James Allen, the last courier out on the night of march 5th, lived a long and relatively high-profile life, yet no one apparently thought to interview him. The escape of these two men will be a featured illustration in an upcoming book, due out by March 2011. As for the line, personally, I don't see it as all that improbable, even though many view it with skepticism today. Crossing a literal line was a common way in those days for volunteers to "vote with their feet," and it was even done before Bexar was taken by Ben Milam. Even though Zuber was known to have inserted a paragraph of his own, it could as well have been another one as the one including the line. Heck, it was even customary among slaves when getting married, to either walk across a drawn line together, or jump over a broom stick laid on the ground. I just don;t see it as being all that improbable.
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Post by Rich Curilla on Aug 1, 2010 21:55:18 GMT -5
I agree. It certainly is not improbable. But is it in fact what happened. That seems to me the issue.
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Post by Kevin Young on Aug 2, 2010 11:52:02 GMT -5
Of course he drew it--it is there in bronze right in front of the church! ;D
It is a line that not all the piety nor wit of research will ever blot out. It is a grand canyon cut into the bedrock of human emotions and historical impulses J. Frank Dobie.
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Post by Kevin Young on Aug 2, 2010 12:42:45 GMT -5
I was looking over some old notes on frequently asked questions I had from Alamo visitors over the years and this one ranked #3.
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Post by garyzaboly on Aug 3, 2010 16:27:59 GMT -5
Was always intrigued by this comment of De La Pena's (p. 44, Perry 1975):
"on the 5th he [Travis] promised them [his men] that if no help arrived on that day they would surrender the next day or would try to escape under cover of darkness, these facts were given to us by a lady from Bejar, a Negro who was the only male who escaped, and several women who were found inside and were rescued by Colonels Morales and Minon."
If true, it imples that Travis either gathered together the entire garrison or sent word of his decision throughout the fort. De la Pena says that the noncombatant survivors knew of this, so we are left to wonder how they all knew, and an assembly of the men, as "Travis's Line" has long informed us, would have been the most logical thing to do.
No less intriguing is the hint that Travis was planning a mass escape---and this of course is equally valuable when considering whether the final mass breakouts were planned or spantaneous.
But of course all this hinges on how much one has faith in De La Pena's account.
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