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Post by Jim Boylston on Jul 23, 2010 10:38:51 GMT -5
Chieftan wrote:
I mentioned this to Herb yesterday in a PM, and though I would put it out to all.
I Googled and Bing(ed) the Mexican Army yesterday to determine how the modern army was organized. While I did not get a lot of detailed information, I did find out that they evidently are not too dissimilar from 1836, in that they have some "regular" brigade level units formed as tactical units, and a lot of regional units, usually in battalion strength. I started looking at the regional units and found a few names with which we would all be familiar - Toluca and San Luis Potisi among them.
Digressing a moment. Our National Guard is also organized on a local basis. In the Army National Guard the lineage and battle honors follow the local unit, regardless of numerical and branch or role redesignation. It is possible to trace therefore the Old North Regiment in Massachusetts through nearly 400 years of history to its modern counterpart, with the modern counterpart retaining a continuous lineage and battle honors going back to the Revolution. Note that U S Army units are not officialy given battle honors for any war before the revolution, althought the lineage is maintained from date of first formation.
That is not to say that some of our ARNG units did have previous battle participation, they are just unable by regulation to display the honors. Pre-revolutionary service is considered service to a foriegn government. There was quite a dust up at one time about former Confederate units being able to display Civil War honors. Thankfully that was ironed out.
Considering that the Mexican Army has these local units I was wondering if anyone has looked into battalion level histories that may shed some light on the Alamo and the Texas Revolution. These could be something as simple as handouts to new soldiers designed to build a sense of team spirit and comradship. It could be a small book with limited publication by a unit member or former member that is a history buff. And it could be an authorized unit history such as we have seen for many of our Army's units since the end of World War II.
Of course I don't know if any of this stuff exists. What I do know is that military units are proud of their history, and usually find a way to write it down somewhere other than official after action reports and the like.
My shock this morning was great in finding out that the Iron Duke was involved with ladies that were not his wife. I have not been this disturbed since I found out that there was gambling going on in Rick's back room. Now in your mind's eye think of the cat-like smile of Claude Raines as he is handed his winnings.
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Post by TRK on Jul 23, 2010 11:04:07 GMT -5
Starting before the mid-1850s, the Mexican government began publishing in serial form lineage reports of all of the units of the Mexican army. These are brief and don't include details about campaigns and battles, but they are useful for tracing the evolution of units.
Athough books were published in Mexico in the 19th century concerning Mexico's wars (Roa y Barcena's history of the Mexican War contains some useful stuff on the Texas Revolution, but not really much you can't find elsewhere), I'm not aware of any battalion-level histories that have been published. Several have been published in this century, such as Sanchez Lamego's histories of the Zapador and San Blas battalions.
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Post by Chuck T on Jul 23, 2010 12:25:18 GMT -5
Yes, I would think that the Mexican Army lineages are similar to our own, with dates and places of activation/inactivation, along with battle honors. In themselves they would only be valuable in tracing possible connections, a roadmap of where to go, and possibly what to look for
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Post by alanhufffines on Aug 3, 2010 17:04:50 GMT -5
Slightly off topic, but here is the 141st Infantry Regiment's (TXARNG) revised Lineage and Honors statement I submitted a few years back. I had the privilege of commanding a battalion in this regiment and the motto is: "Remember the Alamo."
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Post by Chuck T on Aug 3, 2010 19:59:31 GMT -5
Alan: I am quite familiar with the 141st Infantry and the fact that one company traces its lineage back at least to the Republic. I seem to remember that it was Company A in the regimental lineup. Don't know about its modern designation though with all the reorganizations that have taken place since 1957. It would really be nice if some lineal connection could be established to Seguin's Company, although I would think that a longshot.
I did not see the link that it looks like you meant to post.
As far as being off topic is concerned, I think it is very much on topic in that when I first posted this I had hopes that we could find out more information about the Alamo from unofficial records of Mexican Army units of today that may have a lineage connection to 1836. As I am sure you know our National Guard unit histories follow location as opposed to designation. From what I see of Mexican Army organization they may well follow the same path.
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Post by alanhufffines on Aug 3, 2010 21:41:22 GMT -5
Trying to attach. Attachments:
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Post by Rich Curilla on Aug 3, 2010 22:19:31 GMT -5
That time it worked. Awesome time line. I never would have imagined the connection.
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Post by Chuck T on Aug 3, 2010 22:32:34 GMT -5
Alan: Did the mavins at CMH accept your work? The last offical L&H I saw starts in 1880. They can be difficult to live with at times. If Roma Danish was still there you would have played hell with some of those lineal connections. Tradition says that a company in Federick Maryland goes back to 1775, and marched to Boston on the outbreak of the Revolution. I know a guy who has been trying to convince CMH of that for 30 years. Tough Buggers.
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Post by alanhufffines on Aug 3, 2010 23:14:27 GMT -5
It has been approved, but it took several years. I used existing certificates that went back to the 18th Century such as the 116th IN in the VAARNG. All I had to prove was an existing military presence in Texas going back to the colonies. Once I figured out the format it wasn't too bad. There is now a NGB LNO at CMH who assists with all this--could not have done it without him (Joe Seymour--also a reenactor). Just waiting on the new certificate. The secret is that NG units tether to community which usually means county. They could have been any branch over the years but maintain the same continuity. I took the 1880 companies and discovered that they centered around Harris County as of original recognition in 1880. Then I took the assigned companies back and Harris County became Harrisburg County and then Austin's Colony. This differs from the Active Army in that the 7th USI for example, will always be the 7th USI regardless of station. Before I retired I was rewriting all the Texas units in a similar format. Have handed this off to abler hands. Attached is the original L&H. Attachments:
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Post by TRK on Aug 4, 2010 6:55:55 GMT -5
This is straying far from the topic of how the current-day Mexican Army commemorates the history of their units of 1836. Please continue the discussion in the "General History" topic if you like. (I'd move your posts there myself were it not for the several attached documents in the posts.)
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Post by Chuck T on Aug 4, 2010 10:18:07 GMT -5
trk: I think this particular sideline has run its course. I do think though that its value lies in the methology one might use to track units in the Mexican Army back to any possible Alamo connection, and possibly through that get some more information based upon local histories that may have been heretofore overlooked.
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Post by alanhufffines on Aug 4, 2010 11:18:39 GMT -5
You are correct, so let me apologize and get us back on track. Below is a fantastic link regarding all things military in the Latin world. If someone registers and posts, I am sure the answer regarding Mexican Lineage and Honors can be found here. If you browse around there are some amazing discussions of Mexican organization and uniforms. Sorry if this is common knowledge to folks around here. www.militar.org.ua/foro/historia-militar-f20.html |
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Post by Kevin Young on Aug 4, 2010 11:29:15 GMT -5
You are correct, so let me apologize and get us back on track. Below is a fantastic link regarding all things military in the Latin world. If someone registers and posts, I am sure the answer regarding Mexican Lineage and Honors can be found here. If you browse around there are some amazing discussions of Mexican organization and uniforms. Sorry if this is common knowledge to folks around here. www.militar.org.ua/foro/historia-militar-f20.htmlIt is a great site. I attended a conference during the Sesquicentennial of the US Mexican War where, according to the sponsers, the top guy in the Mexican Army who was a expert on its history was to speak. He gave a talk which was taken, almost word for word, from Hefter. He also added an off the cuff remark about Robert E. Lee being at Angostura. |
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